Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:52 pm

I would never say this to anyone IRL because it goes against the values of my community, but does anyone else think that the kollel system in the yeshivish world is the root cause of so many financial issues facing the yeshivish world today?

For one, the yeshiva system “trains” many (not all, but many) single bachurim to completely shrug off any inborn, masculine responsibility they feel as providers. This all but ensures that when they get married they will feel too incapable, scared, uneducated, or entitled to truly give their all to making a parnassah.

Second, the kollel system strongly encourages staying in kollel until it does not financially work. The problem is that by that point it’s often too late for men to become successful in a high earning career, because they don’t have the luxury of starting off as low earner or going to school.

Men are also usually a few years older once they leave kollel and it’s harder for them to put aside their ego to take a job that they feel is “beneath them”, they only want to start with the best and unfortunately their experience and skills don’t match up with their demands…

Anyways, I feel like a lot of the issues that stem from the financial issues facing the yeshivish community- the double income trap, babies being left at babysitters too young, families not making it…. Many of them could have been avoided if the kollel system wasn’t pushed so aggressively on everyone regardless of their and their wives individual temperaments and capabilities.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

amother

Freesia

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:55 pm

amother OP wrote:

Nope. DH was never in kollel and we face those same issues

amother

Celeste

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:56 pm

Twenty years ao I thought that way but not anymore.

These days there are so many government programs that for a larger family there really is little financial benefit from working. My husband who is the financial industry in a community where a large precent of men are in kollel says he hears things like "I would love to get a job but I can't afford to" or "working is a luxury that I can't afford" all the time,

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:56 pm

ftm1234 wrote:

Not only financial issues, but also sb issues

This too! It’s so umhealthy for many men and women, on many levels. How is it possible that there isn’t more pushback? I am a part of the yeshivish community and my own husband was in kollel at one point and these are opinions I can’t voice to my family or friends. But do they all really agree with the kollel system or are they silently against it like me??

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:58 pm

no you arent.

for context I am classis BY girl went through the system and am now married with 2 kids in 3 years my husband is still learning bh.

I still recognize the value of his learning.. but boy, does life ground you real quick. I think that the concept of kollel as an unnegotiable norm is senseless. kollel by definiton is going against the nature of a man and woman.
if a couple can decide together that want to choose this life the woman can voluntarily forgo the outright obligations in the kesubah of her husband supporting her.
the fact that this has become an across the board expected dynamic is something that is more and more stupid to me as I get older and experience a little more 'real' adult life.

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:01 pm

justforfun87 wrote:

As an outsider I don't understand at all how this lifestyle is appealing or sustainable.

again, dont lose sight of the fact that a man that can forgo his nature and devote himself to learning torah full time is incredibly holy.

that is not the issue.

the issue is that it has become a standard that EVERYONE has to submit to.. and I think thats where issues come in.. because not everyone is cut out to sacrfice themselves in this way.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:01 pm

Yes. It's also against my values to be against kollel. I think really highly of the idea of learning all day.

Having said that, the Jewish world has never been pushing kollel and having kollel be the norm like it is today.

Only the *highest-level talmidei chachamim were in kollel in previous generations. It was respectable to work and to be koveia itim.

I'm not sure why no one is addressing the issues this outlook causes.

*edited for clarity

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:03 pm

scruffy wrote:

It's been way too long since a Kollel bashing thread. I'm so glad another was started!

(Not speaking to you OP necessarily since your post sounds pretty thoughtful and non attacking, but to the pages and pages of posts from outsiders that will follow.)

yes I think with these discussions its a 'dont throw the baby out with the bathwater' situation.

there are definite cracks in this 'system' but lets not lose the basic respect for torah learning

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:03 pm

Am I the only one who thinks looking at history that we as a general community are actually doing really well? For most of history I think Jews did much worse. And I think spiritually, also, we are doing pretty well. When in history did so many Jews have the zchus to sit and learn? So our financial situation isn’t perfect. So? Jews throughout history have sacrificed much more.

amother

Hydrangea

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:03 pm

Unigala wrote:

The issue is also when the wife forgoes her right to be supported in order for her husband to learn...and the husband then takes advantage of that and doesn't support her, but also doesn't bother seriously learning in kollel.

It becomes taken for granted that the husband somehow doesn't owe the wife and children support, and that's a travesty and a direct violation of Jewish marriage.

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:04 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

Yes. It's also against my values to be against kollel. I think really highly of the idea of learning all day.

Having said that, the Jewish world has never been pushing kollel and having kollel be the norm like it is today.

Only the elitist talmidei chachamim were in kollel in previous generations. It was respectable to work and to be koveia itim.

I'm not sure why no one is addressing the issues this outlook causes.

exactly what I was trying to say!! thank you for putting it so clearly Smile

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:04 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Sorry but those kollel men are likely just saying that as a copout. Of course it’s hard to go off programs but the whole point is that after a few years your income is hopefully high enough that it’s worth it. The problem is that many of those kollel men probably already got to the point where they literally won’t survive a few years of low/no income while they work to increase their wages, because they have a few kids and their basic life expenses are already too high.

But more likely, they are taking the easy way out.it’s legitimately hard hard hard to start working after years of kollel! So they make excuses. Never mind the fact that their wife is working and somehow they think it’s worth it for her but not for him. How about their wife becomes a SAHM and they get a job to replace their wife’s salary? They’ll still be on programs and their children will at least be taken care of. Or how about they just drop night seder and spend a few years take a night course so they can get a degree/certification they will allow them to start off with a good salary so they can leave kollel and it will be “worth it”?

Both of those are obvious choices that those kollel men have but no it’s much easier to say “working is a luxury I can’t afford (but my wife sure can)”.

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:06 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

I wouldnt say that the husband takes advantage. I think that all comes from the way that kollel is taught as a nonnegotiable standard.
Men are also burnt with this system - maybe more than woman

amother

Celeste

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

Read some of the imamother threads about programs versus working. They weren't written by anyone learning in kollel