Girls making kiddush or havdala

jewgal84

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 5:36 pm

I know when I was on Shluchos, as a single girl, if I didn't go to the shliach house in time, I (or the girl) would make our own havdala.

I know in seminary dorms, if they are not invited out for a shabbos meal, they would make their own kiddush or havdala.

I'm curious, is there anything against it? Is it better not to (and go find someone else who can)? What are, if any, the halochos on it?

Another curiosity-

Someone (boy or girl) who doesn't have wine (and is not diabetic), what are the shitim of them making kiddush on challa.

And yet 1 more-

What are the severities of not making havdala on wine?

stem

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 6:28 pm

I heard that drinking from Havdala is a segula for growing a beard. Needless to say, I refuse to make havdala. I would rather go out of my way for someone else to do it.

Motek

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 6:34 pm

I make kiddush (on grape juice) daytime, all the time. Havdala, never, even when it was inconvenient for me.

havdala for women is a halachic question

Quote:

the Mishna Berura writes that women should preferably hear havdala from their husbands. He also mentions the Magen Avraham's comment that since in any event the practice developed that women do not drink wine from the havdala cup, for this reason alone it is preferable for the husband to recite havdala. Clearly, however, if the husband had already recited havdala when his wife was not present, she should preferably recite havdala by herself, rather than having her husband repeat havdala for her.

SMG

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 6:56 pm

I had a halacha teacher in seminary who was very knowledgable and savvy. He has actually collaborated on a number of contemporary halahca seforim. He assured us that while it is preferable for a man to make havdalah, if any of us ever grew and strange unwanted facial hair as a result of drinking havdalah wine, he would personally cover our electrolysis expenses Smile

.
(He made sure to add that this guarantee did not cover preexisting hair)

elisecohen

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 7:42 pm

A woman has a chiyuv for kiddush certainly, no? In fact I was taught (and I can look it up, I know I have it in books) that a woman can make kiddush for a man and he would be yotzei.

Havdalah is a separate thing, but I have made havdalah, and my husband is very insistent that everyone in the household actually hear and/or make havdalah, me and the girls included.

amother

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 12:46 am

Growing up, my parents were divorced. My sister and I would alternate making kiddush and havdalah. We saw nothing wrong with it b/c my mother wasn't interested (religious level) in saying them. I was just glad kiddush and havdalah were being said. As soon as my brother became Bar mitzvah, we lost our job. It did feel a bit more normal when that started.

As I became a teenager, I developed some facial hair on my chin. Maybe it's from the havdalah grape juice, but we will never know.

tzivi

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 1:01 am

When I was a single mummy I didn't have much choice.... Rolling Eyes

hadasa

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 2:29 am

when my husband's out of town, I don't have much choice either.

jewgal84

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 12:21 pm

Motek wrote:

havdala for women is a halachic question

Quote:

Thanks for bringing the source Motek, definately helps clarify some things!

But what about women who do not have husbands. Ie: divorce, widow and unmarried.

What halachos apply then?

And how about Kiddush at night, I heared it is unpreferable (or perhaps not allowed) for men to repeat kiddush unlike the day when they can make more than one kiddush?

MMEC123

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 12:59 pm

Kiddush I've never heard of as being an issue. Havdala I have. But not cuz of the beard thing. I don't recall the source but there is some kinda of thing with not using a candle if a woman makes havdala (when there is no other option). Anyone ever hear of this?

Meema2Kids

Fri, Dec 09 2005, 1:29 pm

I have also heard about girls not using the candle. I've just always heard negative things in general about girls/women doing havdala, not sure what the source is.

But I make kiddush myself on shabbos morning cuz I can't wait for my husband!

1stimer

Sat, Dec 10 2005, 2:18 pm

L'halacha, a woman is allowed to make havdala! If you're worried about a beard make it on chamar demedina (e.g. coffee)

Aish

Sat, Dec 10 2005, 6:28 pm

[quote="SMG"]

Quote:

He assured us that while it is preferable for a man to make havdalah, if any of us ever grew and strange unwanted facial hair as a result of drinking havdalah wine, he would personally cover our electrolysis expenses Smile

.
(He made sure to add that this guarantee did not cover preexisting hair

too too funny!

TzenaRena

Sun, Dec 11 2005, 7:09 pm

From Sefer Taamei Haminhagim Umekorie Hadinim:

The reason women don't drink the kos of havdalah, is because Chazal say that the tree with which Adam HaRishon sinned was a grapevine. And they said, we learn that she squeezed grapes and gave it to him. and since her intention was to separate from Adam *through wine, therefore women don't taste the wine of havdalah. (Shaloh). Also because Chava extinguished the light of the world.

(in the commentary)* through wine: And the women, since there are conflicting opinions whether women are obligated in havdalah, therefore they should not make havdalah themselves, but rather listen to havdalah from the men. (Ramah Ch.296, par. 8 ). And they should be taught to say hamavdil bein kodesh l'chol without shem and malchus before they do melacha (Machtzis hashekel Ch. 299 par. 14).

in the sefer A"A (Aishel Avraham) there he wrote to judge meritoriously those women who say this bracha, either themselves, or answering after the one who says the bracha, and they say also the holy names, since women already have the custom to bless on all mitzvos shehazaman gromo the brocho asher kiddishanu, since they are subordinate to their husbands in the manner of they shall be as one flesh, through this it is somewhat relevant to say "v'tzivanu".

And so with the brocho of havmavdil, which since it's questionable having to do with a positive time-bound mitzvah, but through their husbands they are subordinate in regard to the brocho of vtzivanu, so it is in regard to this brocho. And I have commanded about this brocho that they shouldn't say it, just listen, which is not the case with Kiddush, which it is better to say the holy names.

Then he brings from Birchei Yosef Ch. 296 os zayin., which brings down as the RamBam, and the Mechaber ( the Beis Yosef) that women make havdalah themselves, and also if a man makes havdalah, he can make it for women. But then he shouldn't make the brocho borei me'orei haeish, that the women should make this brocho themselves.. and he rules that it is obvious that they may bless on the besomim and the kos, since they are birchos hanehenin.

The Alter Rebbe in ARSA (Shulchan Aruch HaRav) Ch. 296, par. 19 says women may make havdalah, and explains the different opinions and why they hold that way.

TzenaRena

Sun, Dec 11 2005, 7:53 pm

Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Aruch:

{Opinion A}

Quote:

According to those who say that primarily havdalah is min hatorah, since it says : Remember the day of Shabbos to sanctify it: remember it with its entry and its departure as stated in Ch. 271;

Also the women are obligated in havdalah min hatorah, just as they are obligated in Kiddush min hatorah, since zachor is compared to shamor as stated there, and they are also obligated in havdalah during tefillah (of maariv) and on the kos,

as the ordinance of the Chachomim who have enacted upon them (the same)as they have enacted for the men, since they are obligated as them( the men) min hatorah in the fundamental havdalah

,

{Opinion B}

Quote:

But: According to those who say that the mitzvah of zachor is only at the entry of Shabbos and not with its departure, and that the basis of havdalah is only midivrei sofrim,

there are those who say that the women are exempt from it, just as they are exempt from all the positive commandments that are time-bound, whether from Torah or Divrei Sofrim,

and even though, --- in all matters of Shabbos, men and women are equal, even in matters which are only md”s, since they are equal in matters which are min hatorah, meaning zachor and shamor, the Chachomim also equated them in their ordinances which they enacted for the remembrance of Shabbos, or its observance,---

but havdalah is not connected with observance of Shabbos, but is a matter of its own, that which Chachomim have enacted to separate between Kodesh and Chol, and they have (merely) found themselves a support from the Torah as it says “and to separate between the holy and the mundane”

Quote:

There are those who disagree about this and say that havdalah is part of remembrance of Shabbos and its holiness, since we mention the difference between its holiness to the weekday, and therefore the women are obligated in them mi’divrei sofrim as they are obligated in all things that the Chachomim have enacted for the holiness of Shabbos, since they passed their ordinances in similarity to Torah, that the women are obligated in zachor and shamor from the Torah as men, and so is the main opinion,

Quote:

Still one should consider the first (I.e. previous) opinion (B) not to make havdalah for women, someone - who doesn’t have to for himself - who has already fulfilled his obligation, and also there are no males big or small listening to him, except women only,

Since according to the first opinion,(opinion B) women are exempt from havdalah, it will therefore be a brocho l’vatalah, but the women themselves can make havdalah themselves, even if they are exempt, since they are allowed to bless on every time-bound positive mitzvah that they fulfill, since its not a brocho l’vatalah as in par. 17,

Still a man should not be yotzei with hearing havdalah from a woman, to take the first opinion (B) into account, and also from the reason explained in Ch. 271 about the daytime Kiddush.