Issue with a certain chabad rabbi. Who to complain to?

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:25 pm

amother Holly wrote:

This thread is completely unnecessary. You had an issue with a purchase and refund.

Your mentchlich response could have been, we aren’t able to use the baked goods And we are so appreciative that you are here for people and for tourists, please accept our purchase as a donation for your good work.

Disclosure. I have a sibling on shlichus in a semi-tourist attraction.
The food he is preparing costs him a tremendous amount in imports etc.
however, he IS relying on the income from tourists and therefore, customer service is important. This is not him bec he has a very small endeavor.

It usually is better for the Shluchim if they treat people nicely and I am not sure what happened here.

But I do know this post was not necessary.

This

amother

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:25 pm

amother Plum wrote:

OP. I dont know how paypal will result things for you but with credit card its usually easier making the dispute.(assuming your paypal is attached to your credit card) Even if you are not fully happy with them I would suggest just dealing with it privately and working it out on your own. complaining to the organization won't really help as at the end of the day it's not like they did something totaly inappropriate (Honestly at the begining of the thread I thought it was something really inappropriate which people with power abuse.... I'm sure everyone knows what I am reffering to)

There's actually a little more to the story. When we were initially making the reservation I asked the rabbi a question about a certain location to which he responded:

Lousy question. You could just.....

Just a very very strange way for a rabbi to be conversing with Jewish tourists.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

yes I can agree to that but most imas will again find a way of judging favoribly saying he is stressed etc..

I was reffering to if he said a zexual inappropriate comment to you etc...

MrsDash

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:34 pm

Bonnet wrote:

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/travel-tips/dos-donts-while-enjoying-chabad-services-travels/

Over the years I’ve spent Shabbos at Chabad Houses from Melbourne to Paris, Chiang Mai to Buenos Aires, Kobe to Hong Kong, Tokyo to Venice, Sao Paulo to Oxnard, Hollywood to Singapore, and Cape Town to Kyoto. Each one stands out as an incredibly memorable and moving experience.

And Antarctica, naturally.

While I can get by pretty much anywhere in the world with a HotLogic and a Polar Bear cooler bag, having a Chabad House makes things much easier and more pleasant.

Mrs. Freidy Orgad’s viral op-ed is an excellent place to start before reaching out to Chabad Shluchim for help. It surprised me, but it seems many people don’t realize that Shluchim are not funded by any central organization and every dollar is self-fundraised.

She notes on the DansDeals Facebook group that the article was translated from her original version in Hebrew and does have some differences, including that her article was written for all travelers and not just frum travelers.

I’m not a Shliach, so I can share some additional insight from a traveler’s perspective. Here are some of my thoughts:

Do your own research BEFORE contacting Shluchim.
Shluchim as a whole are incredibly busy. The majority of them cater to their local community’s needs, but some of them do focus on tourists. Be sure to do a deep dive into their websites, which are often linked to via Chabad.org’s Chabad House locator (or the DDF thread for unofficial Chabad Houses), before contacting them. Those websites often, though not always, will have answers to your questions about the services available in that Chabad House.

Shluchim aren’t your Google Maps or trip planners. Type in your location into the Chabad House locator to find the closest Shliach, rather than guessing who it might be and then asking how far they are from you. It’s not fair to call a Shliach asking about kosher food availability 100 miles away from him.

As I’ve said for years, I do wish the Chabad.org team would make a simple FAQ on the search results page with information such as, is there a daily minyan, does the Chabad House offer kosher takeout food on weekdays or Shabbos, are Shabbos meals available, are there kosher restaurants nearby, are there hotels within walking distance, etc. It would solve a pain point for both Shluchim and travelers looking for quick information about a Chabad House. But that being said, many Chabad House websites do have that information available on their sites (such as Bal Harbour, Flagstaff, Orlando, Puerto Vallarta, and many more), so take the time to research before you contact them. If Shluchim keep their information updated and organized like that it will certainly save them from having to deal with an abundance of information requests.

If you are visiting somewhere with Shluchim, ask them what they need before you travel.

Shluchim sacrifice the comforts of living in a Jewish community in order to connect with Jews in every corner of the planet. Whenever possible and even if I don’t need their services, I reach out to Shluchim to see if I can bring them something from home. Before I traveled to Kyoto earlier this year, I reached out to the official and unofficial Shluchim to see what they needed, which was good as I learned that the official Chabad House had closed over COVID. Rabbi Moti Grumach gave me lots of Kyoto travel tips and told me that they had no need for meat products, but that there are no cholov yisroel dairy products in Japan. I asked him for specific requests and loaded a Polar Bear bag up with them. His kids shrieked with happiness at seeing goodies like yogurt and cream cheese that we take for granted!

Set your expectations at a reasonable level.

Most Shluchim will be happy to accommodate you when possible, but sometimes feel abused by visitors that expect the world from them. Shluchim have various standards in whether they accommodate tourist’s needs and they certainly are not obligated to provide you with a comfortable vacation or trip planning. In some locations, it’s simply not possible to cater to tourists’ needs at all and travelers need to accept that and not bad-mouth the Shliach for not doing more for tourists.

After researching, you can politely ask a Shliach if there will be a minyan or let them know that you have half a minyan with you, but just realize that there’s only so much that can be organized in small communities that may not have any frum local congregants. If a Shliach says that he can’t help you, take that at face value and decide if you need to find another locale to vacation based on that. On the other hand, some Shluchim will be happy to help organize a minyan, especially if you can bring most of one to them.

Also on that note, some Chabad houses will have lavish Shabbos meals with five-star dining, while others may leave you wishing you brought some extra crackers to eat on Shabbos, and others won’t have anything on Shabbos at all. Some Chabad Houses are run out of a Shliach’s home and may not even get a Minyan together on Shabbos, nor do they offer meals. Again, do your research (much of this can be found or asked on DDF), reach out to the Shliach if things on their website are not clear, and temper your expectations as to what will be offered.

Don’t expect things to operate as they do back home.

Many Chabad Houses primarily serve people who are still learning about their Jewish heritage and may not yet be Sabbath-observant. The Chabad approach to Judaism is that every mitzvah and good deed is worth going to the end of the world to accomplish and not to push people away for what they don’t do. The shul may not be geared towards you, so don’t try to shape the experience around what you’re used to, just take it in and enjoy something that might not be in your comfort zone. And certainly, act appropriately around people who may not yet be frum and leave the rebuke at home.

Don’t kvetch about food pricing.

Almost all Shluchim that sell food do so as a fundraiser for their local activities and price the food accordingly. You wouldn’t kvetch about pricing to a restaurant or a hotel in middle of nowhere that had kosher food, so give the Shliach the same respect. If the pricing doesn’t make sense for you, just bring your own food.

There are exceptions to this rule, such as in Thailand and other Southeast Asia Chabad Houses with restaurants, where food costs are heavily subsidized by donors so that Israeli backpackers will keep kosher. You should definitely leave a donation to cover those subsidies.

Of course, there are differences between a Chabad House that happens to have Shabbos meals in exchange for a donation and Chabad Houses that operate restaurants for tourists. It’s certainly within your rights to complain about a restaurant order that wasn’t to your satisfaction, but please don’t do that to a Chabad House offering you a Shabbos meal!

Shluchim are humans too.

Shluchim have many responsibilities. They are not in the hospitality business and sometimes their job (it’s not really a job, it’s the life they’ve chosen to live) can be very stressful. When they may not have your food order ready, they could be arranging a Jewish Burial for a community member. A Shliach can have a bad day with many demands and it’s important to keep in mind that they are only human. You have to be prepared to take things in stride and have alternative plans as they aren’t there to cater to your needs.

Shluchim have to fundraise every dollar, a generous donation and a thank you will go a long way.
If you utilize a Chabad House for a minyan, or especially if a Shliach has gone out of his way to help you, be sure to leave a generous donation. Shluchim receive no central Chabad funding, they need to fundraise for their operations and salary. It’s an easy way to say thank you and make them feel appreciated. There’s no greater investment than in somebody that is sure to pay it forward.

Sometimes you won’t have any interaction with the Shluchim directly, but you will benefit from their years of hard work. For example, guests at the Grand Hyatt Baha Mar have an incredible kosher experience, but that is only possible thanks to years of sweat and labor from the local Chabad. It’s always a good idea to donate to something you benefit from, the vast majority of people don’t do this, so really any amount helps!

Regardless, if you have taken advantage of any service, be sure to say thanks in person to the Shliach and Shlucha and/or write them a thank you note via email after your trip. It can mean the world to someone!
And for heaven’s sake, don’t be a kafui tov (roughly translated, an ingrate) with derogatory comments or jokes while enjoying what Chabad and the Shliach are able to offer you, to make your vacation more comfortable.

A Shabbos in a far-flung Chabad House may be one of the most unique experiences of your life. I’ve seen more lives changed at a Chabad House over a Shabbos during my travels than can be imagined. Take it all in slowly and go along for the ride while remaining laid back and appreciative for the infrastructure that exists because of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s incredible foresight decades ago in setting up the most incredible global network that Judaism has ever seen!

You are officially the coolest, most interesting member on imamother!

To show my appreciation, here's a photo of my bird post bath Very Happy

amother

Blushpink

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:39 pm

amother Mauve wrote:

Not sure I understand the story. If you were planning on giving a big donation then why bother getting a refund? Why not just let the cost of the baked goods be the donation?

Seems like you are mixing up op with the other poster who ordered just baked goods.

Seems that op canceled shabbos food order in advance, was told will get refunded if their slot is filled. Op followed up a few times, it was confirmed the slot was filled yet they didn't want to give a full refund.
I think op has a legitimate complaint.

amother

DarkGray

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:42 pm

amother Blushpink wrote:

Yes but it’s not a Chabbad issue, it’s an issue with a shop keeper.

amother

Blushpink

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:43 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

Yes but it’s not a Chabbad issue, it’s an issue with a shop keeper.

True.
I was responding to the poster who said she doesn't get the story.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:43 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

Yes but it’s not a Chabbad issue, it’s an issue with a shop keeper.

this. calling chabad really wont help do anything. It wont get you a refund. nor will it get the rabbi fired as it's a personal monetary issue so there is no point..

amother

Cadetblue

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:55 pm

amother Holly wrote:

Would you give a donation to someone that acts like a madman?

amother

Molasses

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 2:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

But what does this have to do with your monetary dispute?

amother

Molasses

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:02 pm

amother Blushpink wrote:

Definitely legitimate to call her Rav and ask if there's room to dispute on PayPal if she so desires
Then she'll know if she has Halachic backing for such action or not
But complaining will get her nowhere...

amother

Brickred

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:19 pm

What is so crazy about asking if there is a central governing body for a certain sect when having trouble with one of their members in an official capacity?

If a teacher does something to a kid, we complain to the administration.

If an employee does something wrong we complain to the company or franchise.

Rude tourists are irrelevant. Just explain to OP that each chabad house is independent and not built like a franchise like she thought.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:28 pm

amother Brickred wrote:

I think the post sounded entitled and pointing fingers at “chabad”.

If someone posted: having issue with Belz Guy - who can I go to?
“Belz guy did something really disgusting and wrong. Who can I go to?”
And everyone is imagining. turns out he works at a car dealer and sold you a lemon… ya. Expect such responses…

Especially with the cookie story mixed in with the comment about how it’s all a business.

MommyM

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:29 pm

amother Brickred wrote:

What people are trying to explain is that this is not the "official capacity" of the Shliach/Chabad house. It's like a teacher having a private after school program, not connected to her school, and someone going to the principal.

In her original OP, she was not clear that this was an issue with a side business venture of the Shliach vs an issue within his capacity as a Shliach, and that's why people jumped to the examples of rude and entitled tourists trying to explain that this is not the official role of a Shliach.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

Ok, for context I'll explain. We were scheduled to go to a certain resort near chabad. We arranged shabbos food from said chabad. Our plans changed 2 weeks before the shabbos we were supposed to be there and we would be staying in another area over shabbos not near chabad. We contacted the chabad rabbi and explained that we won't be in the area and would like a refund. At first he said if he can replace our spots, he'll issue a refund.

A few days later I noticed that on the chabad website it says they are fully booked and closed out for shabbos meals. We called the rabbi and tried to explain that if the website says they're sold out then they won't be able to replace us. He says if he opens booking on the website he'll get 80 reservations and he doesn't want to deal with it. He then explained that when people see on their website that it's closed out, some call him privately and that he'll replace us that way.

A few days later we called him for an update and he said that he did indeed replace our spots but will only issue a food credit that we can use for delivery when we're in the general area. We went back and forth via email and he said food credit only. We made restaurant reservations already and don't want very over priced food delivered to eat at our hotel.

I started a dispute with paypal a few days ago and I guess they just contacted him. He has the chutzpah to email me saying he was considering a refund but since we complained to paypal he will let them decide. I forwarded him his emails saying NO REFUND.

I don't think this is fair or menchlach.

ETA: My intention is not to bash chabad. As a group I think they are above and beyond the simple people like me. This bad experience doesn't change my opinion. There seems to be one bad apple though.

I hear your frustration but are taking the situation as if they are a business. They are not. They are a non for profit and do everything for chessed. You are in the wrong here.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

When you made your reservation, there was a promise for a full refund if you cancel? You were in touch, he offered what he offered, you couldnt fargin him? You had to complain to paypal? He is right, its now in their hands.
Is it worth all the unpleasantness?

deena19k

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:36 pm

Op, I really think you should change the thread title. I dont think you realize the connotation it gives off.

funkyfrummom

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:39 pm

OP, could you not just consider this a donation to Chabad? I think that is what I would probably do if that happened. That way you would be supporting their continued programming and availability in that particular area.

effess

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 3:47 pm

Disputing money with cc company directly cause a lot of damage to the business/organization.

amother

Teal

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:06 pm

You're vacationing in a resort are with your family and your disputing a charge via PayPal??????
Consider it tzedaka and move on.
This season is crazy stressful for shluchim in resort areas.
I promise no shluchim are making money and living it up from said business. They are using it to cover costs of their shlichus.
If you'd have the decency to call a rav, they would tell you to consider it tzedaka.
Bring him to Bais din. A legal dispute with PayPal will affect his business and chabad house long term. You happy now?

I honestly expected some kind of s-xual abuse crazy story.