11 year old always challenges my commitment to yiddeshkeit

amother

Wed, May 22 2024, 6:00 am

I have no idea why. She’s a very rigid personality and black and white thinker. She has ADD and I’m suspecting a bit of OCD. But I’m regular frum and sure try to keep halacha!
Example:
Baby was listening to cocomelon in the car. Daughter flipped out and yelled at me that I’m letting her listen to music in sefirah. I explained to her that it’s allowed. She continued yelling that I must close the car door because “you must not care and want me to hear music in sefira!’ - she was outside the car, I was inside the car.
Another example:
She told my my nightgown was too short and she feels uncomfortable when I wear it. I ordered a bunch of longer ones, I don’t want her to feel uncomfortable. She says they’re still no good. I explain to her that it’s ok for my pajamas to be over my knees. She flips out.
What do I do and who can help?
I’m willing to send her to therapy or myself to parenting classes. (Lakewood area) I’m suspecting religious OCD but her whole personality is like this.
(I get so upset yesterday and offered to give her the ravs number since she obviously doesn’t trust my standards. I’m awful. She’s eleven 😩)
Send help!

amother

Denim

Wed, May 22 2024, 6:39 am

It's an immature understanding of halacha.

It might be good to learn with her so she can start to see that halacha is not so black and white. Learn examples of exceptions, of how one inyan can sometimes override another.

Start with the obvious: Saving a life on Shabbos. (do this from inside a sefer)

Can you drive on Shabbos?
No.
Well, actually SOMETIMES.
When?
To save someone's life.
Saving a life is MORE important than Shabbos!

(now bring in more gray areas...)

When is it saving someone's life?
If someone isn't breathing, is that a real emergency?
What if they broke their leg?
What if it's a newborn baby who has a fever?
What if they think they might have been bitten by a snake?

Etc.

With time and maturity, she'll start to understand that halacha is not so black and white.

In the meantime, you need a better response to her questions:

"It's true that the halacha says X (no music in sefira, cover your knees), but in this case I learned that it is an exception. If you feel uncomfortable with it, I'll be happy to turn off the music when you're in the car / buy you pajamas that cover your knees. But just so you know, many Rabbonim say it is fine in this type of situation."

amother

Cantaloupe

Wed, May 22 2024, 6:47 am

My dd was like this. It WAS ocd and it was caused by pandas. Huge improvement with pandas treatment. I would NOT accomodate her, as you're feeding her ocd which will make it grow. Also, don't take it personally or let her know you're doubting yourself. Just a nonchalant "it's ok to do it this way" is best. Your dd seems to have other red flags for pandas as well.

Success10

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:22 am

Listen to her, hear her out, even show her you are actively looking up the halacha or asking a rav if you are unsure. But be confident in your religious choices. Do not get emotional or insulted when she makes these statements. Remain calm. She will pick up on your insecurity. Ride it out and allow her brain to mature into seeing shades of gray.

Please don't jump to a diagnosis. It might just be a rigid personality type with preteen hormones added to boot.

Last edited by Success10 on Wed, May 22 2024, 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total

Comptroller

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:28 am

amother OP wrote:

That sounds like the school is sending stricter messages than what you practise at home.

Maybe you want to rethink the school choice?

amother

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:31 am

Comptroller wrote:

That sounds like the school is sending stricter messages than what you practise at home.

Maybe you want to rethink the school choice?

It’s totally not that…. The school is very in line with the hashkafos we practice at home… it’s not the only way her rigid and black and white thinking come across but it’s the one that drives me the most crazy 🙈

chanatron1000

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:33 am

amother OP wrote:

There is always a possibility that one of her teachers decided to go with the "fire and brimstone" approach, even if in general the school doesn't go like that. I once had a substitute teacher who was kind of like that, and she was only there for one day, but she scared a lot of the more anxious kids.

amother

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:34 am

amother Denim wrote:

I do this and she has seen us being mechalel shabbos in times of emergency and she understood the circumstances when they were explained to her. But the next time it’s the same questioning. That’s why I’m leaning more towards an OCD thing over her really wanting to know…

Comptroller

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:46 am

amother OP wrote:

Well, about the nightgown, I don't think she should meddle in the kind of clothes you wear, that's a lack of respect towards her mother.

On the other hand: if she always receives the message that other people are allowed to meddle in the way she dresses, I kind of understand that she wants to meddle in the way other people dress.

amother

Mintgreen

Wed, May 22 2024, 7:49 am

I'm going to be honest, I was like this as a kid to a degree. I thought I knew so much better than my mother. Its immaturity mixed with an intensity of personality.
Bh I grew up. She is only 11.

I very much agree with denim and sucess's approaches.

amother

NeonBlue

Wed, May 22 2024, 9:58 am

She has the attitude of a teenager. I would think you should tell her when she gets married she can wear longer pajamas for example but dh and I are following a rav that allows xyz. Also she is not allowed to disagree with her parents. It is from aseres hadibros and more important that the length of pj

amother

Ballota

Wed, May 22 2024, 10:41 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

Jooc, what are the other red flags for PANDAS that OP described?

giftedmom

Wed, May 22 2024, 10:44 am

So normal I have this too with my pre-teens but the tantruming is over the top and might be a lack of emotion regulation. You can’t obey her it makes a kid feel so unsafe that they have this level of control over a parent.
I allow my kids to choose their own clothes from toddlerhood but I draw the line at dictating anyone else’s. Not mine and not their little siblings.

amother

Tuberose

Wed, May 22 2024, 11:24 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Might be OCD and might also be ASD

I also thought maybe asd. Rigidity and black and white thinking is a big part of that and it's often comorbid with adhd. And not uncommon for it to be missed in girls. Although the part where you don't care about her because you didn't do what she wants could also be rejection sensitivity dysphoria which is a common part of adhd as well. I don't think it's helping her that you keep trying to make changes to appease her. She needs to know that people will do things differently. But you can still assure her you care about her and love her even if you're doing something she doesn't like.