"Different" Children - don't let it come to this !

mumsy23

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 2:05 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

su7kids wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

thats a very sad state to be in, to kick out a child just because they are not a duplicate of you and your way of life? thats terrible.

Yes, it is devastatingly sad, and you have to know that it happens to many kids.

I have a son who is "different" (Delicious, delightful, menschlig, but different) and he has so many friends who have been kicked out. Many of his friends were raised in frum homes and are no longer shomer shabbos or kosher, and their parents don't want them in the house.

The common excuse is that they are a bad influence on the younger children.

I was always taught that you love your kids NO MATTER WHAT, if they come home with three earings, if they dye their hair purple, if they come home gay, if they decide to become not frum. it is precisly at those times, when they think they have lost you that you need to give them the most love to show then that no matter what, they will always be your child.

I agree. I already tell my three year old "There is nothing, nothing you can say, do or be that will make me not love you." We have a little 'routine' I say "What can you do to make mommy not love you?" and she says "nothing!". I will make sure all my children know that no matter what kind of trouble they are in, they will always have a place to come home to and loving parents who will be there no matter what. I may not be happy with their choices but I will always be their mother and will always be there for them.

ShiningThrough

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 2:29 pm

I think the video was far-fetched (almost annoying) but the message is important. Parents need to seek help for their kids, themselves and their families. Losing faith in our kids is like losing faith in G*d... we have to keep davening and trusting that it's all part of the plan and do whatever we can to maintain a strong, positive kesher. It can be a very painful process... it's not always natural or easy for parents to open their hearts and see beyond the 'now'. Hatzlacha, strength and patience to us all!

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 2:47 pm

I find the reactions here very interesting. If I'm not mistaken, most of the women who posted here do not yet have teenage children (I said MOST). I wonder how many of us here understand what it's like to have a house full of young, impressionable children along with a rebellious teenager? I'm not talking about whether he's Charedi or Kipa sruga. But can you even begin to imagine what a mother (or father) goes through when said rebellious teen wreaks havoc in the entire household? Picking fights, bad language, violence etc. B"H I don't have this nisayon but I know someone who does. It's very easy for us to sit back with our 5 and 7 year olds and condemn others.

Al Tadun et Chavercha ad Shetagiya Limkomo (Do not judge your friend until you are in his place).

May NONE of us ever know the tsa'ar and hardship these parents face.

cassandra

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 2:53 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

I'm not talking about whether he's Charedi or Kipa sruga.

That's what the video was talking about. That's what I was responding to. As someone who respects many people who wear kipot srugot I couldn't see past that. And who's condemning others? Just because I can't imagine sacrificing one child for the perceived rescue of another? I don't think that has anything to do with the age of my children.

Mimisinger

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 2:58 pm

Sorry, that was an AWFUL video. Bad message, bad acting, bad everything. Offensive, that the kid was otd - off the derech and wearing a kippah seruga, wouldn't he not be wearing a kippah at all if he was otd? Also, what's with the cancer? The whole thing was awful. Sorry, no tears, just nausea from the video's message. And yes, I only have a toddler, but this has nothing to do with kids going otd.

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:00 pm

Cassandra - I'm surprised you couldn't see past that because you missed the point of the clip. I watched it too. And I didn't take umbrage at the kipa sruga. The reality is, when a Charedi child starts to go off the derech he very often dumps the black kippa and puts a kipa sruga on. Sometimes it stays black but gets smaller or of a different fabric or whatever. The point of the video was not to put down kipa sruga. I agree with whoever said it was a bit extreme but the video certainly made its point. I'm sorry that some of you got stuck on the knitted kipa thing when the message was so much deeper. You guys probably would have been happier if they would have portrayed a boy without a kipa but
a. It's usually not like that - they do put on kipot at home usually and
b. they probably did not want to film a guy walking around without a kipa, which is assur. So, they used a kipa sruga to portray that the kid left his family's ways. And I do think that hanging out at 42nd st. and sleeping on the street constitutes leaving the family's ways.

greenfire

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:04 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

so are you insinuating that it's okay to throw our rebellious teen out ... in order to save the next kid ... what lesson do you think that kid learns ... that love is conditional on how religious you are ... for that matter you've lost them both ...

Mimisinger

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:06 pm

Chossidmom, I usually agree with everything you say, but regardless of reality as you know it or not, putting an otd kid in a kippah seruga is offensive. It means that my dh, who btw, is very learned, a big mensch, teaches daf yomi, davens 3x/day, learns, etc. etc. etc. is somehow similar to a kid who went otd. It's hard for people like us but in the same vein, it makes sense why you wouldn't get the offense.

Yes a kid drinking beer in the kitchen and sleeping in Times Square are not good behaviors, but give me a break. It doesn't show any other kids in the house for whom he can be a bad influence on and I think it's horrible that a father would throw him out instead of getting him help, detox, and would only come to him when he's in the hospital and dead.

ora_43

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:08 pm

cassandra wrote:

That's what the video was talking about.

The video showed him drinking beer, which from what I could tell was meant to show that he was "rebellious," not just wearing jeans. Obviously they're not going to show him doing truly bad things in a video meant for religious viewers, but IMO they made it clear that it wasn't just a question of the kid being MO instead of hareidi.

Quote:

And who's condemning others? Just because I can't imagine sacrificing one child for the perceived rescue of another? I don't think that has anything to do with the age of my children.

You can't imagine ever sending one child away for the benefit of another? What if an older child with serious problems is causing several younger children to feel unsafe? Or is openly drinking or using drugs around the house?

I think it has a lot to do with kids' age, since younger kids, no matter how many issues they have, usually don't pose a serious physical threat to each other or get involved in criminal activity. For parents of younger kids the "would I send one away" question is almost always purely theoretical.

greenfire

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:09 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

No, I'm not "insinuating" that it's ok to throw a teen out. I'm saying that it's very, very complicated because there are many other neshomos involved. That's why proper guidance is necessary. In Judaism we are meant to listen to our heads and our rabbonim and not just our hearts.

as a parent the heart and love of every child & their neshama is important ... I hardly think you need a rov to tell you NOT to abandon your child ... you only need seichel

amother

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:11 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

As someone who has this situation, It is a very hard balance. When otd child is home, she cause chaos. Younger (and older) children are very distressed by the language behavior etc. But they love her and do accept her. That being said, its very hard not to feel panicky when I see one of the much younger children saying or doing things like she does. Chossidmom, you are right, ppl dont necessarily understand when they dont experience it themselves. There are no easy answers, but we are trying very hard to keep a good relationship with said child and daven, daven and daven.

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:11 pm

Now that you mention it, it is very strange that there are no other children portrayed in the movie. If anything they portray the father as a real ________ for throwing out his son just - because. Because he didn't like him sitting on the counter or drinking beer or whatever.

I hear where you are coming from with the kipa thing but I still feel you're getting hung up on details. Noone is implying that a kipa sruga means a drunk. I have plenty of family members in kipot srugot and they aren't addicts. The kipa was just a way of showing the kid taking a different derech. I think the people that made the clip would probably be very upset to know that they offended people as I'm sure that was not their intention.

cassandra

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:16 pm

ora_43 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

That's what the video was talking about.

Honestly, I didn't notice the beer, I thought he was just talking on the phone. I was very turned off by the way they chose to dress the rebellious kid.

Quote:

Maybe not drinking, but if my child was openly using drugs in the home I'd probably call the police. That's harmful. I meant in this situation, where your child is "different". The "differentness" seemed to me to be the message of the video, not the dangerous behaviors. I guess of not smart enough to understand the nuances and innuendo of frum video productions. And I take it you disagree with the video.

Quote:

I think it has a lot to do with kids' age, since younger kids, no matter how many issues they have, usually don't pose a serious physical threat to each other or get involved in criminal activity. For parents of younger kids the "would I send one away" question is almost always purely theoretical.

Well, someone who has well-behaving teens can't relate either. Perhaps this should be in the private forum for mothers of kids who have issues.

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:19 pm

greenfire wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

as a parent the heart and love of every child & their neshama is important ... I hardly think you need a rov to tell you NOT to abandon your child ... you only need seichel

Sometimes seichel isn't enough. When you have to choose between the young and impressionable and the rebel. I have witnessed firsthand the anguish of mothers of children like this. And I've seen the whole situation and its effects from very close up. That's why I can listen to and respect the opinion of someone like the amother above who has been there and done that (unfortunately). Anyone who has not been in their shoes doesn't have a clue. And what's right for one family may not be right for another.

My oldest is only turning 13, so I'm not really qualified to talk either. Sure, my heart can talk. But not having been in that situation myself I cannot begin to fathom what it does to the family. And that's why I would not make declarations either way. Shelo Neda.

Clarissa

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:21 pm

I'm not getting the whole cancer theme. He got cancer because he was smoking? Or was it a brain tumor, explaining the bandage or whatever on his head in the end? Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the father smoked, as well, since so many do. So he happened to have cancer and, when he was dying, he had a deathbed reconciliation? I think it's obvious, that a knitted kipa (over dyed hair, is that okay in those groups?) and jeans can escalate to sitting on the counter, which can escalate to smoking in Times Square, which becomes terminal illness.

So that kipa was merely the gateway drug.

anon

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:24 pm

Chossidmom, I'm with you. I have no clue how ppl got the message that parents kick out their kids for wearing a kipa sruga, and that the video is bashing the kipa sruga.

Ladies, if you have a boy from a chassidishe or yeshivish home wearing a kipa sruga and jeans, DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT? Do you think the buck stops there? Ha!

When I was watching the video, I was watching a boy who left his family's ways, was full of attitude, and as chossidmom said, was probably picking fights, cursing, and just wreaking havoc on the entire family. To focus on the kipa is ridiculous. A boy once told me that he laughs when parents get upset that their sons have started wearing jeans because they don't realize that their sons wearing jeans is an indicator that they're also smoking pot or worse. We are not talking about respectful children who are slightly rebellious and can be categorized as just "different"...they are often the most obnoxious ppl to be around.

I'm sure that there are some parents who make a big deal about just "just" wearing jeans or a different yarmulke, and I'm sure that in doing so, they make the situation a lot worse. But I did not see that this video was about parents kicking a child out only for a different way of dress.

And Mimisinger, this has nothing to do with your DH either. No one is bashing jeans or kipa sruga. Plenty of shtark srugies walking around. But if a boy comes from a very yeshivish/chassidishe family, and during the teenage years starts to rebel, develop an attitude, and wear the srugie, you can place a safe bet that these boys are not teaching daf yomi and davening 3X daily. Background means EVERYTHIGN in this picture.

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 3:24 pm

HE GOT CANCER BECAUSE HE SMOKED. Isn't that obvious? (That's why he had a bandage on his head). All of us imamothers know that smoking is a worse crime than murder (because you kill everyone around you too). There have been quite a few threads here where imamothers don't get how some of us can ALLOW our husbands to smoke.