"Different" Children - don't let it come to this !

ChossidMom

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 4:09 pm

su7kids wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

HE GOT CANCER BECAUSE HE SMOKED. Isn't that obvious? (That's why he had a bandage on his head). All of us imamothers know that smoking is a worse crime than murder (because you kill everyone around you too). There have been quite a few threads here where imamothers don't get how some of us can ALLOW our husbands to smoke.

I didn't see that much background to this video at all. Where did you get it from?

I was kidding su. I've been pounced on over "tolerating" my husband's smoking here. So, I let my smoking hangup get in the way.

Clarissa

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 4:16 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

One more thing Clarissa - Go stand in the corner for missing the point of the clip. I think Cassandra is already there.

I'll be happy to stand in the corner, but I should tell you that I didn't miss the point. But the details, in storytelling (especially in a visual medium) are important, as you don't want to distract your audience with confusing story details or over-reaching to make a point. The kid didn't need to get cancer to get his father to love him and bring him back to the fold, did he? And, in real life, doctors don't sit by your bedside, take your pulse and openly shake their heads. I think that went out before Marcus Welby finished his residency.

I'll go sit in the corner now.

Last edited by Clarissa on Mon, Sep 08 2008, 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 5:03 pm

For those of you who would never throw a child out of your home under any circumstances, I want you to consider my story.

(the people in this story were not frum, I'm a BT, but this could happen in a frum household as well)

When I was born, my older half-brother, from my father's side, was fourteen. He had been a troubled child, and did not take his father's remarriage well. In fact, he even tried to make my mother fall down the stairs when she was pregnant with me.

As a teenager, he got into drinking and throwing wild parties when my parents weren't home. He also lied about everything he did and generally caused trouble.

Then he started s-xually abusing me, his four-year old sister. Eventually I go the courage to tell this to my mother (despite being warned not to) who immediately spoke to my father about it.

My father would not hear of it. He was not willing to send his (then eighteen year-old) son out of the house in order to protect his daughter, so my mother took action. She issued a restraining order against my brother (without my father's permission) and eventually they divorced.

Admittedly this is extreme. And as a mother, I could never imagine having to chas v'shalom send away one of my children. However, the threat to other children must be taken into account. It is not fair to make an innocent child suffer in order to keep your teenager at home. It doesn't even have to be abuse. What if your teenager is giving his younger sibling drugs?

mandksima

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 5:23 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. Until this last post, I was going to write how angry this video made me. How could someone throw out their son for not being enough like him? The video was so poorly executed but I got the point. But after reading amother's post, I now see your side of the story and it would definitely be a situation for a rav to handle and might entail putting your rebellious teen in a juvenile home for rehab if it is for drugs or a prison of sorts if he's abusing others.

That wasn't portrayed in the video at all though. Nothing dangerous was happening in the house. The father was angry and let that cloud his vision. He was too embarassed to have a son like that. I cried out of pity for people with parents like that. I couldn't watch the end though, I was too upset that people like that exist. I know they do even though the video was so off-base.

People don't know what a precious gift children are until they are gone. Who says children are easy and will fit the mold you want them in? I know I don't have teenagers yet but I have difficult children that will be even more difficult teenagers. If I only tolerated perfect kids, I would have gotten rid of mine at birth. They're my responsibility now, no matter how violent and obnoxious they become. Throwing a child onto the street can be akin to murder. No parent should ever do that, there is always somewhere the child can be sent if he can't live at home because of the other children involved.

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 5:33 pm

To all those saying that you should never throw a teenager out of the house, what do you say about parents sending SN children, DS or others, out of the house, to homes? Sadly there are many who do it. And people usually say "of course its not ideal, but how could we judge them, how could we blame them?" Why is that so different? Because they dont understand?
I think the main issue in this video is HOW the father threw him out in a fit of rage, locked the door on him, and didn't care where he ended up! That is terrible. Parents should never discipline at all out of anger. As Ora and CM said, there are many cases where for various reasons such a child would be much better off out of the house. But there are ways to do it. Speak to daas torah. Speak to the kid. Find him a place. Know where he is. There is a way to do it in a loving manner too.

And the second point about the father becoming so loving when the child was dying, sadly that applies to many other relationships as well. The are siblings, uncles, aunts, family members... that dont get along and fight all their lives, but when one of them gets very sick, all of a sudden.....

amother

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 6:10 pm

you folks are so busy judging these parents, do you know how it feels to have a child otd.
I have a cousin who had cancer and he survived when he was 22 he started slipping otd. my aunt says that the otd was much more painfull than the cancer since the cancer she knew was not in her hands but when she saw that he doesnt observe shabbat etc, she allways feels guilty maybe she coul've done a better job.
who are we to judge if the parents should keep the rebel teen home?
As greenfire said we need to love our kids unconditionally !who says a parent who feels like they had to throw their kid out doesn't still love the child?

greenfire

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 6:25 pm

amother wrote:

please -

I'm saying the exact opposite ... NEVER throw a kid out ... they feel like garbage ... it's your unconditional love that helps them through their hardest of times !!!

cassandra

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 6:32 pm

amother wrote:

When I was born, my older half-brother, from my father's side, was fourteen. He had been a troubled child, and did not take his father's remarriage well. In fact, he even tried to make my mother fall down the stairs when she was pregnant with me.

I think the half-sibling part complicates things a lot, assuming he wasn't living with his own mother.

Quote:

Then he started s-xually abusing me, his four-year old sister. Eventually I go the courage to tell this to my mother (despite being warned not to) who immediately spoke to my father about it.

My father would not hear of it. He was not willing to send his (then eighteen year-old) son out of the house in order to protect his daughter, so my mother took action.

That's awful and I'm sorry you had to endure that. As an 18 year old he is an adult anyhow. I would definitely treat an adult child differently than a minor child.

Quote:

She issued a restraining order against my brother (without my father's permission) and eventually they divorced.

I'm happy your mother stood up for you. I don't think that your case speaks to anything even remotely touched upon in this video or the other conversations. When I said I couldn't envision throwing out a child I meant for run of the mill things. Obviously if one child is s-xually abusing another he would have to go. I was referring to religious issues, as it seemed that this is what the video was addressing.

Quote:

It doesn't even have to be abuse. What if your teenager is giving his younger sibling drugs?

That is abuse, in my mind.

amother

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 7:23 pm

Quote:

Quote:
Then he started s-xually abusing me, his four-year old sister. Eventually I go the courage to tell this to my mother (despite being warned not to) who immediately spoke to my father about it.

My father would not hear of it. He was not willing to send his (then eighteen year-old) son out of the house in order to protect his daughter, so my mother took action.

That's awful and I'm sorry you had to endure that. As an 18 year old he is an adult anyhow. I would definitely treat an adult child differently than a minor child.

The thing is, that it started before then. When he tried to make my mother fall down the stairs (I'm not sure if he pushed her or tripped her), he would have been 13 or 14. Also the other things he was doing (other than the abuse) started much earlier too.

Of course it is a hard position to be in. And yes, being a half-sibling definitly had something to do with it. He did live with us and took his father's remarriage quite badly (he did odd things, like sleeping in front of their bedroom door when he was a young teenager)

It did seem to me, however, that other posters were not only referring to religious issues, but also things such as drugs, etc.

And I don't think that it is abuse for a 16 year old to give drugs to his 13 year old sibling (if it were a much younger child it would be), but I would still think that it would be a reason to send him out of the house.

Also, it shows that you don't know what is going on. If a teenager is thrown out of the house for abusing his younger sister, do you think either he or his parents would tell anyone? Of course not, they would probably just say something generic like "he was a bad influence on the younger children"

greenfire

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 7:29 pm

ora_43 wrote:

greenfire wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

You can't imagine ever sending one child away for the benefit of another? What if an older child with serious problems is causing several younger children to feel unsafe? Or is openly drinking or using drugs around the house?

Greenfire, I'm curious how you would answer the question that Ora threw out here. It's all well and wonderful to make declarations about not choosing etc. but what would you do if a bad situation like this came up?

to answer you're question I simply love them ALL UNCONDITIONALLY !!!

That's not an answer. Of course you love them all. But if one is victimizing another, what physical course of action do you take?

whatever has to be done to help that child, therapy, hospital, call the police, etc. each case is different ...