jewish community vs not - shluchim/openminded ppl weigh in!

TheBeinoni

Sun, Oct 19 2008, 6:28 pm

Sorry for the weird title but I really didn't know how to put it! I thank you in advance for reading my post. I am looking for chizuk and your thoughts on my situation. I wasn't sure where to place this...

Here's my story, I feel its necessary to understand my situation. I came from a traditional, very proudly Jewish but totally not religious home, however we have very important frum roots that I guess got lost along the generations sadly. At 12 I became Lubavitch, at the time I was still in public school. For high school I compromised with parents to attend a very light MO yeshiva (tho not my first choice). It was there that I went CRAZY. Totally off the derech. Around 19 I felt that I wanted to get married but none of the dates I was being set up on worked out. It was then that I felt that it was time to cut the cr*p, stop the excuses, and become the Jewish woman I had always wanted to be. I went back to wearing skirts, davening, attending shiurim, etc etc. At that time then I was led to who would become my bashert - DH and I started dating around Pesach time (after I turned 20), were engaged Lag B'omer. I was not 100% frum then, however. I was what I like to call "wishywashy" on certain things including Shabbat. DH was traditional, not in any way shomer shabbat, but did put tefillin every day, washed for hamotzei, strict on kashrut, and several other things that really inspired me. When we were married 8 mos later (after engagement) I was not covering my hair all the way, but I was working on MANY things. A couple months later B"H I started covering all the way, became very strong in shmirat shabbat, and only grew stronger and stronger in my mitzvot. I finally felt that I had was truly becoming the Jewish woman I REALLY want to be. I had really come full circle, 360 degrees back to the girl I was when I was 12/13 yrs old, just wiser and more appreciative of Judaism and frumkeit.

Sometimes I faced opposition from DH. Not outright - B"H he always respected whatever I would take on but I knew that he wasn't always so into it. After some things happening in our lives, though (including health issues, stress, no kids yet, etc) DH has now taken on a few things including keeping Shabbat. I am so proud of him! He knows that I am moving at a faster pace than him, but then again I've been working on it since I was 12! I should add that DH had some issues growing up like being forced to be a certain way and had many not so great experiences with "dati'im" as an adult so he never wanted to "be like them." I have now tried to slow down a bit in certain things like taking on certain chumras and hidurrim so as not to alienate/intimidate/overwhelm DH with the guidance of my rav and mashipia (both Lubavitch). B"H I feel now like I'm at the point where I don't resent it anymore, I love DH, he's incredible - he's doing things now that no one could ever get him to do - keep Shabbat, go to shul, etc etc the list goes on.

NOW HERE'S MY CURRENT DILEMMA:
Where we are currently residing (an EXTREMELY frum town) is totally not conducive to DH's growth in yiddishkeit - he is living here for 8+ yrs and ONLY NOW is he starting to become shomer mitzvot, more due to our home atmosphere. The community does not fit us AT ALL. It is not so fitting for me either because the hashkafot here (and there ARE many) are not in line with mine. I feel like I can't really strike a balance here - I'm sure that's my own personal issue, but all in all, WE GOTTA MOVE.

Now,
We are considering moving to where my rav lives. My rav who is a Chabad shaliach lives in a town that is totally not frum and nowhere close to it. The cons: have to travel 30 mins to nearest mikveh; no sense of frum community; only about 2 or 3 other frum families (the two rabbis and one other family that may end up moving to a "real" community); surrounded by gashmiut in the purest form, etc etc etc. To paint you a picture, this is a place that up until recent years it was still on the books (in land titles) that it is forbidden to sell land to a Jew! So you can imagine the types of Jews that DO live there - SO assimilated.

Now for the pros: THAT Chabad house is THE only shul DH said he feels 100% comfortable in and my rav is the only rabbi he would ever consider turning to; surrounded by a community that really DOES care about one another despite the fact that they aren't frum - they are all discovering yiddishkeit and that in itself is inspiring; I have a great job opportunity to work at the school run by Chabad and will be provided with great housing; much closer to my family than where we live now; plus better job opportunities for DH; no pressure on DH (he grew more in his frumkeit when he was living in NY in a totally non Jewish area than now that he's back in a totally frum atmosphere).

I see moving there as an adventure, but is it too dangerous? I feel like it will be the most conducive to DH's growth, and regarding my growth - well if I even think about moving backwards CV"S I have my rabbi and rebbetzin right there to keep me on track, for working with them and other incredible ppl like them daily should surely serve as inspiration... right? Am I thinking like a crazy person?

Are Jewish communities all they're cracked up to be? DH and I will most likely NEVER find an even remotely perfect fit because we are SO DIFFERENT/UNIQUE/Whatever you want to call us. I see my rabbi's children and they are by far the most incredible kids I have ever met. I have watched them grow up and they are so well rounded, intelligent, AND proudly frum! Yet they grew up in a totally not frum town! Sure that's a difficult task, but I feel like maybe it's the right path for us.....I dont want DH to continue to be turned off by Judaism, and in any case we have been planning to move, we just don't know where to.

Can any shluchim/ppl in kiruv AND anyone with an open mind weigh in about living in Jewish communities? I need chizuk, understanding, and I'm interested in hearing ppl's input on this. TIA Smile

ora_43

Sun, Oct 19 2008, 6:49 pm

I became frum in a town with a tiny Jewish community. I can see what you're talking about--there really is something special about being in a small Jewish community where most people are growing in observance. It's often much more close-knit and accepting (which for many people, it sounds like your dh included, is absolutely crucial) than larger communities are.

Just a few thoughts:
1) If you're going to be living with only 2 or 3 other frum families, make sure you like them first. You know you like the rabbi and his family and the shul; do you know the other families as well, or at least some of them? Do you think they could be friends?

2) It can make frum life harder. On the one hand, the community is often totally accepting of people at different levels of observance, but on the other, you often have no kosher restaurants, and it can be hard to find jobs that allow you to be shomer shabbat (at least in my experience, I should add that some people I know have had more positive experiences in that area).

3) There can be pressure in the other direction. In a large frum community it can be uncomfortable feeling "less" b/c of being less observant, in a small not-so-frum community it can be uncomfortable being the "dos" who, for example, avoids non-tznua movies while for most of the community they're considered a perfectly acceptable form of entertainment.

4) Being more frum than most can be really good for some. People who are natural leaders and educators tend to really shine when they're leading the community in terms of observance than when they feel behind. You have to know your own personality and know whether you tend to lead others or be influenced by them (or both, or neither).

5) It's not a good place to raise kids. The only people I've met who've successfully raised a family of frum kids outside of a reasonably large Jewish community are Lubavitch shlichim, and they usually send the kids away to school from a relatively young age. I know way too many people who thought they'd be fine living in an area with a small Jewish population only to discover too late that their kids couldn't handle it. This isn't necessarily an issue for you yet, but it's something to keep in mind, that if you do move there you might find yourself wanting to move out again once you have kids in school.

chanagital

Sun, Oct 19 2008, 6:50 pm

I was born and raised in Los Angeles (in the top 3 largest US Jewish community) to living in a rural community like the one you mentioned above.... it is good that you know the rabbi and his family well. But if you have a falling out with them Gf there might not be anywhere else to go. Also be careful you might be moving into a community that you are better educated then most of the other families in a Jewish sense be prepared to answer lots of questions when the rabbi and his wife are busy. Also make sure your minhag is the same as the rabbi. That happened with us and it led to my DH and me being miserable. Where we used to live we were constantly scouring the markets trying to get kosher food that wasn't snack food or dairy. In fact in the public school system where we lived they didn't have a clue what Channukah was. We were the weird ones on the block that didn't have any decorations on the lawn... ever. We lived a block away from the shul. It made me more proud of who we were and it definatley strengthened our Yiddishkyte because we weren't the same as every one else... We bought a large freezer to hold all the meat because the closest kosher market was an hour an a half away from our house. So we had to make do with what we had. We didn't and don't do Cholav Israel so that wasn't much of an issue but it made it easier to eat in a non-Jewish environment. I also had to worry about all my kids extra activities and packing extra food. I never had to worry that the pple whose house they went to kept kosher... they didn't and I knew that so they never ate out. In the Jewish community I have to worry about the level of kashrus and figuring out if it is up to our standards. They both have their ups and downs.... I mean most large Jewish communities are expensive to live in such as NYC, LA, Monsey etc... I pay almost 2K a month for a tiny three bedroom apt that is the basic apt no washer dryer hook ups or dish washer etc.it is owned by a slum lord who doesn't care about the apt. where I live right now.... but outside of the community I payed 1000 dollars/mth to rent a three bedroom house with a nice size back yard, fire place, and washer dryer hook ups and a brand new dish washer etc. I was lucky the owner of the house was so fascinated about the religious Jewish pple moving into his house he asked us about sinks, ovens, and other stuff he installed before we moved in so it was easy to Kasher. He redid the kitchen before we moved in... he was going to do that anyways, but I got a stainless steal sink out of the deal and a brand new dish washer that was still wrapped in plastic when we moved in. Oh I forgot the other draw back to living out of the Jewish community... there are times there is no minyan... so if gf something should happen to you or your husband you might have to look else where.

Last edited by chanagital on Fri, Oct 24 2008, 12:09 am; edited 5 times in total

bubby

Sun, Oct 19 2008, 6:58 pm

Firstly, I want to say that when I read your post I was so moved. You & DH are examples of determination & moving in a steady, if slow, pace so every step is firm & definite.

I am not a Shlucha, but I am the mother of 2 & Bubby to K"AH grandchildren who are mamosh in Galus. My older DD is in a backwater European town. She travels 1 1/2 hours to the Mikvah. That's close by some Shluchos standards (at least she doesn't get on a plane like someone I know who goes 3 hours EACH WAY!!) She gets Kosher food from another country. By that I mean ANYTHING with a hechscher (fruits, veg, sugar etc are local Very Happy

)

There are almost no Jews in their town; they mainly cater to tourists for 6 months in the year. They work with the pockets of Jews in towns & villages across their country. When I was there @ Chanukah a few years ago SIL went to a town synonymous with the highest level of Chassidim before the war, numbering in the high tens of thousands. In 2004 there were 7 Kosher Jews. DD has NO friends in the town, no one to shmooze with. But they are incredibly happy (I had to go & see for myself!) & very fulfilled.

So too will you & DH. You will become very close to the Chabad Shliach & his family, you & DH will also be Shluchim (we all are, but you will REALLY have the opportunity to impact the secular Jews) & you will make a good, solid frum life for yourselves. G-d willing, when children come, you will re-evaluate the situation. If necessary, you will move. If you decide to stay, there is a great school...the On-line school run by the Shluchim Office.

In the words of that very secular song, you will not only survive. You will THRIVE!!

Living in Frum communities, while having obvious benefits, isn't always so great. When I was a kid there were 20,000 Jews sustaining numerous Shuls & 12 Kosher butchers in my town. It wasn't so Frum, though, & I felt somewhat isolated, being from a Shomer-Shabbos, Shomer-Mitzvos family. But when I moved to a very frum Kehilla after I was married I saw things in the "frum" people there that quite frankly, made me sick.

Whenever I go home to my parents' town I love it! I see all the old folks who knew my parents as kids, & they are so impressed with my family & my lifestyle. It's a Kiddush Hashem! When I took my X little children to Shul I would tell them it was their Achrayos to make a Kiddush Lubavitch. And they did, & my mother's friends were thrilled when DS recently went to spend Shabbos with his Bubby & went to Shul there. You will do the same, & you'll have such a wonderful legacy to give to your kids!

You're not crazy. This is a perfect growth opportunity & you will be blessed many times over for your Meiseros Nefesh for Yiddishkeit (except that you'll probably be so happy you'll want to pay the town for living there!! LOL

)

I'm sending you an invitation to come visit me in CH ANY TIME YOU WANT for Chizuk, R&R, or anything at all!

TheBeinoni

Sun, Oct 19 2008, 7:27 pm

Wow, thank you ALL for your incredible responses! I don't even know where to start (in response to everything everyone said)!

- Obviously my rav and his wife and my mashpia are totally involved in helping us make the right decisions. My family (including myself) are VERY close with the rabbi and his family, it's as if we've grown up together. They are like family to me and of course I would never want something to compromise our friendship. And of course I don't know their deepest darkest secrets but I do have a good idea of what they go through as we are VERY close. When I say VERY I mean VERY. I should also add that when I was younger I always envisioned myself going on shlichus...but you know how life is, things change/get in the way, etc.

- I would be working with the rabbi's wife on a daily basis in their school. It is an incredible school by ANY standards. That is another factor in my decision, working at that school is a dream of mine and although I like my current job, I don't feel totally "fulfilled" by it.

- Youngmommy mentioned about ppl taking their children out of a frum school. I, too, know someone very close to me who did this and she is totally torn and confused. However, she herself is not frum, nor is her husband. We would definitely send our kids "out" to schools outside the area. Ironically, there are more frum options (as far as schools go) if we would live there than what we have now. It is a very centrally located town, so yes, you have to commute, but you can reach any type of school you want within 30 mins - Lubavitch, diff types of MO, yeshivish, etc...

- Regarding Ora's points: the 2 other families are amazing ppl, I know them fairly well and they are great ppl. DH likes them as well, at least enough to sit and chat with them at kiddush (which is rare for him)! Definitely Jewish life is more difficult - no Kosher takeout! They do sell chalav yisrael in the local Pathmark (I was in shock when my rabbi told me this)! But as far as other products, they do their shopping where their children go to school, about 20-30 mins away.

- As far as cost of living, it is WAY more expensive in the nonfrum area than the frum one we live in, ironically. It is a very wealthy county, so property taxes are very high, not to mention the cost of houses. We would be renting a house, though, which I think would be part/all of my salary (we have to discuss details after the chag).

- Atali mentioned Cherry Hill, I heard it is VERY yeshivish?? I also know the Chabad shluchim over there (they are related to my shluchim!) and they are also great ppl, but I am not so familiar with the community as a whole over there.

- Regarding jobs - DH is dying to break out of where we live. The prices here are a fraction of the prices outside the area! DH doesn't make nearly what his work and effort is worth in this town, where as in the non frum town he could possibly make more than he deserves (ppl are willing to pay up there) which would give him an edge because he is a fair and honest guy and would be considered very reasonable up there.

- Soldat - I really appreciate what you said about those on shlichus were given a bracha to do so. If I were married to a frum guy, I would most likely stay put, or at least move to some other frum community. However I am not. I really feel like DH needs that Chabad atmosphere where a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, in order to grow.

Many ppl say (and I'm sure they are right) that everything changes once you have kids. But I can't have these expectations that the minute my children are born DH will take "leaps and bounds" in his observance. I had a point where all I could think of was "Please Hashem give me a child so that my husband can become frum." And that is TOTALLY wrong. B"H I've been working on myself.

Crayon mentioned that we do not live in a typical frum community.. we live in Lakewood. DH is just so turned off by the whole "community" thing (because all he really knows here in the States is Lakewood, since he is from EY), that I don't know if any typical frum community will suffice....

Maybe this is a whole different thread but does anyone live in a community where ppl are FRUM but do not compete in terms of $$$ nor how many mitzvot they keep? I did not grow up in a community, I just saw what my friends who did went through...

Thanks everyone for the chizuk. Please keep the opinions/advice coming - I am loving it and you're really helping me to think about all the options!

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 20 2008, 9:44 am

About public school: in Europe, and until 5/10 years, many out of town frum people including some charedi sent to public school (some sent to boarding school after bar mitzva, some didn't want to separate and only sent for yeshiva after 18) instead of moving to a bigger town, because they liked the environment of where the lived, or had their parnassa there. It is NOT true that only shluchim have their kids turn right.

Before people tell me I lie as already happened, my husband has learned and been taught with people like this in kollel, and I can even post my class pics with charedi girls whose parents didn't want/couldn't pay Jewish school, in PARIS, and I'm not so old! These parents, and now children definitely associate with charedi. Those who made alia live in Bne Brak, Givat shaul, Harnof...

About Jewish school: some drive the kids one hour, two hours, three hours (!) for a Jewish school. It is hard, exhausting, and the kids can resent it bad, especially because they live far from their friends. It often ends up in public. Dorm can be a solution. It has other hardships, but I'm no specialist. Homeschool I don't envision how you teach more than 1 child at the same time unless they're of the same level, again no specialist.

While even I wouldn't want my children in public school today, it has to do with the state of public school in France, and also because of course it is NOT ideal and you need a "no worry" personality I don't have.
I grew up in public school and turned out even (much) frummer than my parents thank you. BUT kids who give in to social pressure won't do fine. I was the token Jew and behaved for that. It's also easier if there are other Jews, if possible frum, in the school/class!
If you choose public, you'll have to be honest with yourself and acknowledge it if c'v it's not going well.

About kashrus: it will be expensive, very expensive. And rarer hechsherim, CY, glatt... if you find them, will be even more, and often bad quality, sometimes spoiled, etc. Or you'll have to buy them at the big town, but then you'll need to pay for oil! But maybe you can go the same day as mikve?

About mikve: not much choice... make sure it is decently clean!

Social life: it is difficult because it's a small town! especially if you're the frummest, youngest, different, etc! do you plan to socialize with the other frum families, invite them (are they in walking distance for shabbes), etc?? make sure it's their thing! here, people do shabbes in family, they don't invite! I'm the only full time haircoverer, the only young wife, one of the only housewives, the only frum Ashkenazi except the shluchos of neighbouring towns... it's hard.

Of course you can befriend non Jews, but somehow there will always be something missing there.

Kollel: (I know your dh isn't interested, but if someone else is considering small town). Often, the only way to have a kollel is mamash to open one (if there is a community center, ask if you can use a room, even just the talmud tora room) and to try to appeal to other couples who want a sheltered environment. My dh used to be in kollel every evening, now he studies alone and he tells me it's so-so. It goes much quicker than a shiur or a study group, which is good,, but it's less "rewarding" than a chavruta with someone of a good level.

Eruv: don't forget, when you have kids, you won't be able to visit anyone on shabbes for more than 1 year.

Jewish commodities: if you believe in Jewish cleaning ladies, baby sitters, etc... forget.

Of course I agree of all the pros: low house prices (often, not always -here it's almost as expensive as Paris go figure), sheltering, quiet, clean (big Jewish communities are often old/dirty or skyrocketting prices), people are less stressed also commute time also takes a toll.

TheBeinoni

Mon, Oct 20 2008, 11:45 am

Thanks for breaking it down Ruchel! Smile

Ruchel wrote:

I know in Europe or at least Paris ppl send their children to public school, but here in the States I would NEVER. There are just too many adequate Jewish options to not send them to a Jewish school. (btw by the time my kids would be old enough, the rabbi's wife and I may already open up a Jewish day school together! Dream come true! Very Happy

) B"H the most we would have to commute would be 1 hour, but there are closer schools (then again driving in the morning rush hour could turn a 30 min commute into 1 hour). But that is in the far future. I don't have ANY children yet and I would be working in the Chabad Preschool so I could send my kid(s) there until they grow out of it, so we're talking at least 3-4 years away (the sooner Hashem sends me a baby!)

Quote:

About kashrus: it will be expensive, very expensive. And rarer hechsherim, CY, glatt... if you find them, will be even more, and often bad quality, sometimes spoiled, etc. Or you'll have to buy them at the big town, but then you'll need to pay for oil! But maybe you can go the same day as mikve?

This is something that worries me, especially after getting used to living in Brooklyn (before I was married) and now Lakewood where you can take your pick of 10+ all Kosher grocery stores that don't even sell chalav stam! We keep chalav yisrael AND pat yisrael so, yes, living in a totally non-observant area worries me, however, in many of the Jewish communities in NJ ppl do NOT keep chalav yisrael and even rarer, pat yisrael. So I think anywhere but Brooklyn and Lakewood could be a challenge. I could be wrong.... I remember a point where the rabbi's family had to freeze milk.. but now they carry chalav yisrael in the local store, so that's great! Sure, maybe it spoils quicker, I don't know. But it is still definitely do-able, I would just have to stay strong in it! I know we should only do things for Hashem and ourselves and not for other ppl, but one thing that inspires me to keep a strict Kosher household is knowing that I can have my rabbi and his family eat in our house.

Quote:

About mikve: not much choice... make sure it is decently clean!

Yea, another thing that I am thinking will be tough because the mikveh I go to here in Lakewood is a DREAM! Jacuzzi, stunning, clean, nicest mikvah ladies! And 5 mins away! And what about toveling dishes! I will have to drive far away to do that too (then again, how often do I really buy new stuff... LOL

)

Quote:

Social life: it is difficult because it's a small town! especially if you're the frummest, youngest, different, etc! do you plan to socialize with the other frum families, invite them (are they in walking distance for shabbes), etc?? make sure it's their thing! here, people do shabbes in family, they don't invite! I'm the only full time haircoverer, the only young wife, one of the only housewives, the only frum Ashkenazi except the shluchos of neighbouring towns... it's hard.

Of course you can befriend non Jews, but somehow there will always be something missing there.

Yea, about that social life thing. I don't have much of it here anyways. I have my, what, 3 friends in Lakewood that I can actually communicate with and that actually are completely non-judgmental about my situation with DH (one of them is a childhood friend who was, you guessed it, raised Lubav). It's nice to have ppl to go to on Shabbat and Chagim which I know would be non-existent if we would move to said area. However, DH HATES, and I mean, HATES going to other ppl. He likes to stay home all the time, it's me who likes to go out. Aside from that, as far as other aspects of social life, the community at Chabad is a bunch of diverse, interesting, caring people who are discovering Judaism day by day. DH loves it because he doesn't feel judged over there, yet, when he goes to shul here he is very uncomfortable. Now, I'm not saying that ppl here necessarily judge him outright, but HE does not feel like he has a place amongst "religious" Jews. Socially, I think it would be a lot better for DH. As for me, my closest friends all live in different places in the world, so I'm pretty much used to my social life being through a computer or phone or the occasional/rare visit, or sometimes I go into Brooklyn to visit my friends there. But yea, that's my life (now can you understand why lately I'm here all the time! Very Happy

)

Quote:

Kollel: (I know your dh isn't interested, but if someone else is considering small town). Often, the only way to have a kollel is mamash to open one (if there is a community center, ask if you can use a room, even just the talmud tora room) and to try to appeal to other couples who want a sheltered environment. My dh used to be in kollel every evening, now he studies alone and he tells me it's so-so. It goes much quicker than a shiur or a study group, which is good,, but it's less "rewarding" than a chavruta with someone of a good level.

Halevai DH was interested! And forget about men, what about us women who want to learn in shiurim or even chavruta! That is something that makes me nervous, I feel like I won't have the opportunity to learn in that typical way, but on the other hand already the second rabbi's wife asked me if I wanted to learn with her on the phone, and I know that if I was able to be frum at 13 in public school and still learn somehow, I can do it now as an adult as well...definitely you have to seek it out and "create" that opportunity so to speak more so than in a Jewish community, but it is possible.

Quote:

Eruv: don't forget, when you have kids, you won't be able to visit anyone on shabbes for more than 1 year.

The house we would be living in is next door to the shul. If I am not mistaken there is an eruv around the entire property that includes rabbi's house, shul, the house we would live in. If not though, the rabbi's family has a live-in cleaning lady that would also help out with the "carrying" on Shabbat when another rabbi used to live next door. Sure, not ideal, but something I'd have to find out. In Lakewood we don't have full eruv. Just where you live, as in your property! So, the new area could even be an improvement!

Quote:

Jewish commodities: if you believe in Jewish cleaning ladies, baby sitters, etc... forget.

I don't even have a cleaning lady now, but what about even Jewish stores, like readily available Judaica items such as seforim, havdalah candles, blechs, whatever! We'd have to travel about 30 mins or so for quality stuff, so no last minute shopping or toveling kelim before Shabbat, that's for sure!

Quote:

Of course I agree of all the pros: low house prices (often, not always -here it's almost as expensive as Paris go figure), sheltering, quiet, clean (big Jewish communities are often old/dirty or skyrocketting prices), people are less stressed also commute time also takes a toll.

Like I said, this place would NOT be cheaper than any Jewish frum community in NJ, if not already more expensive. However, the situation itself (being offered a beautiful home next door to shul) makes it possible.

You know, my friend and I were discussing the difficulties of finding a "matim" Jewish community (her husband is totally frum, learns, so she's in a, let's say less unique situation than I am) and we both agreed that "out of town" communities are more laid back than the NY-NJ ones. Like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Haven, etc etc.... HOWEVER, neither of us would ever move to those communities! They are too far away from our parents and it would be even more difficult to just pick up and move to somewhere so "far" away! It works for some, but it's not an option for others.

This whole discussion is really helping me sort things out in an organized and realistic fashion. Thanks, all. I may just print out ppl's suggestions for when I sit down and discuss with my rabbi and his wife. Yes

Also, like I said, by the time my "kids" (who are up until now only imaginary) would need to commute to school, that is 4 years away, so at the very least this could be a great experience for a couple years that would allow DH to grow without pressure and me to grow and become stronger in what I'm already doing (because I started taking things for granted living here...)