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mummiedearest
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 Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:00 am
perhaps I missed those, miriamf.
though I admit I find it disturbing when kollel wives have bugaboos, same as anyone else owning bugaboos. I really cannot understand how anyone can justify spending that much money on a stroller. I would feel incredibly uncomfortable pushing a bugaboo in public. I really think its entire function is to scream "MONEY" at everyone who passes.
I think much of the bashing done on kollel threads by those not in kollel is based on frustration. and I think a lot of the sense of entitlement that some of us are frustrated with is not exclusive to kollel couples but shows up more easily in that situation.
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BeershevaBubby
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:01 am
| miriamf wrote: | -I am just so frustrated with the whole thing! if you chose a kollel lifestyle, then live it! dont try to schnorr off everyone else!
-What about all the kollel families who "NEED" a $300+ designer stroller? It drives me crazy when we go to shul and you could pick out the kollel strollers from the lineup, and not because they are the cheap, used ones.
-many kollel wives today no [sic] little about sacrifice |
All but the first seem to be observations. And the first comment is simply a poor choice of words.
| miriamf wrote: | | And many others including phrases such as "make me ill" "just so disgusting" "I should give MY MONEY to people who sit around and say they ARE HOLIER tham me" (the last one is not exact but close) |
But the last sentiment happens to be a valid one, sorry to say. The other two are again, poorly worded opinions, but not necessarily bashing enough to close down an entire thread.
| miriamf wrote: | | ANd I love everyone's "concern." No one else probably is now in the position of marrying off a child while her husband is learning, as well as having had a father who was in kollel most of her years at home, which was an issue when she needed to get married. But all of you are more concerned than me. |
Excuse me but there are plenty of women who are either making weddings or have children in the Shidduch scene and since most people don't mention what line of work their husbands are in, you have no way of knowing if there are second generation Kollel families here (or about to be made, so to speak). In addition there are the women making Bar Mitzvahs and it's very possible the husbands are still learning. Do you really think 7 years give or take is enough time for the learning husband to get an education, get a job and then put enough money away to make a wedding and then help support this son so he can learn?
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shayna82
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:06 am
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I think everyone should stop looking at what others have, then judging them, instead focus on the things that will matter in 30 years, and a $1000 stroller is def. not gonna be one of them.
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Atali
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:11 am
How is this not offensive?:
| Quote: | | I know that I will get killed for writting this but I think the problem that most people have are the two or three year learners that are forced to be benchwarmers because they want to get their kids into schools in Lakewood. So these people who could only learn for two years end up wasting three to five years to wait until their daughter gets into school and then they go out to work. That's where the system is flawed forcing men to learn and extra two or three years just to get into school. Anyone who lives in Lakewood knows this to be true and sad to say I know a few men that the second their daughters got inot school all of a sudden got a job or started their own business. |
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ChossidMom
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:14 am
About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns?
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BeershevaBubby
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:15 am
| Atali wrote: | How is this not offensive?:
| Quote: | | I know that I will get killed for writting this but I think the problem that most people have are the two or three year learners that are forced to be benchwarmers because they want to get their kids into schools in Lakewood. So these people who could only learn for two years end up wasting three to five years to wait until their daughter gets into school and then they go out to work. That's where the system is flawed forcing men to learn and extra two or three years just to get into school. Anyone who lives in Lakewood knows this to be true and sad to say I know a few men that the second their daughters got inot school all of a sudden got a job or started their own business. | |
WEll if I understood it, maybe I'd find it offensive, but it's a confusing post.
If I DO understand it correctly, what she's saying is that due to societal/community pressures, fathers feel obligated and forced to learn in Kollel just so their daughters can get into school. How is that offensive?
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Atali
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:15 am
| ChossidMom wrote: | About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns? |
Exactly. Also, sometimes people need nicer strollers when they cannot afford cars and need to walk a lot.
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shayna82
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:18 am
Chossid Mom I agree. I would never look at someones material possesions and get sick over it. everyone has their priorities and spending a lot on a stroller is their choice...
sheesh, its all relative. we got our first stroller and car seat for almost $300. I would probably be bashed that that was even too much, why get that when you can get a $100 one...
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ChossidMom
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:18 am
| YESHASettler wrote: | | Atali wrote: | How is this not offensive?:
| Quote: | | I know that I will get killed for writting this but I think the problem that most people have are the two or three year learners that are forced to be benchwarmers because they want to get their kids into schools in Lakewood. So these people who could only learn for two years end up wasting three to five years to wait until their daughter gets into school and then they go out to work. That's where the system is flawed forcing men to learn and extra two or three years just to get into school. Anyone who lives in Lakewood knows this to be true and sad to say I know a few men that the second their daughters got inot school all of a sudden got a job or started their own business. | |
WEll if I understood it, maybe I'd find it offensive, but it's a confusing post.
If I DO understand it correctly, what she's saying is that due to societal/community pressures, fathers feel obligated and forced to learn in Kollel just so their daughters can get into school. How is that offensive? |
The only part I find offensive here is the use of the term "benchwarmers". Could be that the poster is describing an accurate situation. Of course, it's only "sad" if the guy doesn't really want to be learning. Otherwise, it's just the poster's opinion.
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mummiedearest
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:20 am
| ChossidMom wrote: | About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns? |
certainly it's possible. I'm not saying that anyone who has one took out a loan on it or anything. I find it disturbing because it's becoming the norm. I live in an area where nearly everyone owns a bugaboo, wears expensive designer clothing, and wears and incredibly expensive sheitel. I have no doubt that they can afford it. if it was important to me to have those things I'd make sure I could afford it somehow. but these things are considered so much a necessity. if someone offered me a bugaboo I'd do one of two things. if it were a close relative I'd ask for a cheaper but equally functional stroller and tell them if they felt the need to spend that much money on my kid I'd prefer the rest of the money be spent on diapers. and if it was someone I was not close to and would not see frequently, I'd return the stroller and buy a cheaper stroller and a large supply of diapers. I just don't understand why people consider bugaboos so wonderful, and I don't like the fact that in a few years anyone seen with a graco will feel poor.
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shayna82
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:21 am
| Atali wrote: | | ChossidMom wrote: | About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns? |
Exactly. Also, sometimes people need nicer strollers when they cannot afford cars and need to walk a lot. |
or sometimes they want a piece of quality not a piece of junk. or sometiems they just like the new innovative designs, or sometimes they waited for 5 years for a baby and are excited to have something really special and funky colors or soemthing. point is, who cares? stop looking if it makes you "sick"
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baba
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:55 am
| mummiedearest wrote: | | ChossidMom wrote: | About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns? |
certainly it's possible. I'm not saying that anyone who has one took out a loan on it or anything. I find it disturbing because it's becoming the norm. I live in an area where nearly everyone owns a bugaboo, wears expensive designer clothing, and wears and incredibly expensive sheitel. I have no doubt that they can afford it. if it was important to me to have those things I'd make sure I could afford it somehow. but these things are considered so much a necessity. if someone offered me a bugaboo I'd do one of two things. if it were a close relative I'd ask for a cheaper but equally functional stroller and tell them if they felt the need to spend that much money on my kid I'd prefer the rest of the money be spent on diapers. and if it was someone I was not close to and would not see frequently, I'd return the stroller and buy a cheaper stroller and a large supply of diapers. I just don't understand why people consider bugaboos so wonderful, and I don't like the fact that in a few years anyone seen with a graco will feel poor. |
As someone who received a bugaboo, I feel impelled to answer. The bugaboo is the best gift we got! It isnt merely a status symbol and I really think it is an amazing stroller, especially if you walk a lot and on not such great roads. Where my in laws are from (they bought it) it costs around the same price as most of the other better strollers. Plus, where I live it's most definately not a status symbol. Most of the people here dont even know how the bugaboo is seen and most dont care. So honestly, I really do think it's one of the best strollers and am glad we have one.
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mummiedearest
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 11:58 am
| baba wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: | | ChossidMom wrote: | About the fancy stroller - Is it at all possible that a poor couple received an expensive stroller as a gift from a parent or grandparent? Where I live the first stroller is usually given by the parents.
Is that enough to make someone sick? Why should I be sick over something that someone else owns? |
certainly it's possible. I'm not saying that anyone who has one took out a loan on it or anything. I find it disturbing because it's becoming the norm. I live in an area where nearly everyone owns a bugaboo, wears expensive designer clothing, and wears and incredibly expensive sheitel. I have no doubt that they can afford it. if it was important to me to have those things I'd make sure I could afford it somehow. but these things are considered so much a necessity. if someone offered me a bugaboo I'd do one of two things. if it were a close relative I'd ask for a cheaper but equally functional stroller and tell them if they felt the need to spend that much money on my kid I'd prefer the rest of the money be spent on diapers. and if it was someone I was not close to and would not see frequently, I'd return the stroller and buy a cheaper stroller and a large supply of diapers. I just don't understand why people consider bugaboos so wonderful, and I don't like the fact that in a few years anyone seen with a graco will feel poor. |
As someone who received a bugaboo, I feel impelled to answer. The bugaboo is the best gift we got! It isnt merely a status symbol and I really think it is an amazing stroller, especially if you walk a lot and on not such great roads. Where my in laws are from (they bought it) it costs around the same price as most of the other better strollers. Plus, where I live it's most definately not a status symbol. Most of the people here dont even know how the bugaboo is seen and most dont care. So honestly, I really do think it's one of the best strollers and am glad we have one. |
good for you and I do mean that sincerely. I live in an area where everyone has a bugaboo. I am one of two women in shul who do not own expensive fancy strollers. we are also the ones who don't wear designer clothing or fancy sheitels. I definitely feel out of place in that shul. I do see the bugaboos as a status symbol in my area.
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justanothermother
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:00 pm
| YESHASettler wrote: | | Atali wrote: | How is this not offensive?:
| Quote: | | I know that I will get killed for writting this .... | |
WEll if I understood it, maybe I'd find it offensive, but it's a confusing post.
If I DO understand it correctly, what she's saying is that due to societal/community pressures, fathers feel obligated and forced to learn in Kollel just so their daughters can get into school. How is that offensive? |
This gem was written by amother. I thought it was offensive and wouldn't try to defend it. However, the majority of the posts were not of that tone. If a few nasty posts are included, it is not a reason to delete an entire thread, that is why there is a report function.
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gonewiththewind
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:22 pm
| YESHASettler wrote: |
| miriamf wrote: | | ANd I love everyone's "concern." No one else probably is now in the position of marrying off a child while her husband is learning, as well as having had a father who was in kollel most of her years at home, which was an issue when she needed to get married. But all of you are more concerned than me. |
Excuse me but there are plenty of women who are either making weddings or have children in the Shidduch scene and since most people don't mention what line of work their husbands are in, you have no way of knowing if there are second generation Kollel families here (or about to be made, so to speak). In addition there are the women making Bar Mitzvahs and it's very possible the husbands are still learning. Do you really think 7 years give or take is enough time for the learning husband to get an education, get a job and then put enough money away to make a wedding and then help support this son so he can learn? |
What I was trying to express was that all the people who were so "concerned" in the thread were not the ones who are working hard to actually deal with the situation.
And if you think all the rude remarks are simply comments, I guess we are just never going to agree.
I have news. People in kollel are not perfect. People not in kollel are not perfect. The whole society is too materialistic and it is unrealistic to think some kollel people won't be.
Should we take a day to point out all things we want to criticize about each group? And smear whole groups if you know someone who doesn't act properly, and even spread false smears? Believe me, there is plenty to say. But if we have any desire not to tear apart frum society we will stop doing idiotic things like that.
Ok, people, lets what group should we pick on today? I kind of like this golus anyway...
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small bean
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:31 pm
[quote="Atali"]How is this not offensive?:
[quote]I know that I will get killed for writting this but I think the problem that most people have are the two or three year learners that are forced to be benchwarmers because they want to get their kids into schools in Lakewood. So these people who could only learn for two years end up wasting three to five years to wait until their daughter gets into school and then they go out to work. That's where the system is flawed forcing men to learn and extra two or three years just to get into school. Anyone who lives in Lakewood knows this to be true and sad to say I know a few men that the second their daughters got inot school all of a sudden got a job or started their own business.[/quote][/quote]
Is this really true? I live in Lakewood, grew up in Lakewood and never heard this before? I'm just wondering...
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gonewiththewind
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:34 pm
| YESHASettler wrote: | | miriamf wrote: | -I am just so frustrated with the whole thing! if you chose a kollel lifestyle, then live it! dont try to schnorr off everyone else!
-What about all the kollel families who "NEED" a $300+ designer stroller? It drives me crazy when we go to shul and you could pick out the kollel strollers from the lineup, and not because they are the cheap, used ones.
-many kollel wives today no [sic] little about sacrifice |
All but the first seem to be observations. And the first comment is simply a poor choice of words.
| miriamf wrote: | | And many others including phrases such as "make me ill" "just so disgusting" "I should give MY MONEY to people who sit around and say they ARE HOLIER tham me" (the last one is not exact but close) |
But the last sentiment happens to be a valid one, sorry to say. The other two are again, poorly worded opinions, but not necessarily bashing enough to close down an entire thread. |
The last sentiment is a valid one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your post has convinced me there is no hope for klal yisroel so deeply rooted is our hate of other groups that we see nothing wrong. Forget guys. Moshich is not coming. I just can't see how he would want to.
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creativemommyto3
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:39 pm
| miriamf wrote: | | YESHASettler wrote: |
| miriamf wrote: | | ANd I love everyone's "concern." No one else probably is now in the position of marrying off a child while her husband is learning, as well as having had a father who was in kollel most of her years at home, which was an issue when she needed to get married. But all of you are more concerned than me. |
Excuse me but there are plenty of women who are either making weddings or have children in the Shidduch scene and since most people don't mention what line of work their husbands are in, you have no way of knowing if there are second generation Kollel families here (or about to be made, so to speak). In addition there are the women making Bar Mitzvahs and it's very possible the husbands are still learning. Do you really think 7 years give or take is enough time for the learning husband to get an education, get a job and then put enough money away to make a wedding and then help support this son so he can learn? |
What I was trying to express was that all the people who were so "concerned" in the thread were not the ones who are working hard to actually deal with the situation.
And if you think all the rude remarks are simply comments, I guess we are just never going to agree.
I have news. People in kollel are not perfect. People not in kollel are not perfect. The whole society is too materialistic and it is unrealistic to think some kollel people won't be.
Should we take a day to point out all things we want to criticize about each group? And smear whole groups if you know someone who doesn't act properly, and even spread false smears? Believe me, there is plenty to say. But if we have any desire not to tear apart frum society we will stop doing idiotic things like that.
Ok, people, lets what group should we pick on today? I kind of like this golus anyway... |
Why does a question have to be seen a a criticism? Sometimes I think that some ppl here think that if you don't always say" wow, the hasmada and dedication of kollel ppl is incredible, I am in awe of the mesierus nefesh that they do..." then it's bashing.. There are issues in each and every group and sometimes when something comes up, some ppl want clarification how to think about it.
The whole society is materialistic but some ppl have this idea in their heads that b/c of the fact that kollel ppl are totally devoted to Torah, that they would be above that.
Who wants to tear apart frum society? part of being frum is asking questions. Kollel ppl above all should know that. What do you think your husbands are doing all day in the bais medrash??? do you think they are just reading and translating text of gemara??? They are questioning and ripping apart sometimes every word or syllable in the mishna and tosafos.
Let's say I spoke to my cousin's wife (who is a kollel wife) and she told me that she thinks that some women don't really think about their choice as a kollel wife (meaning they are fully supported and have free reign of the daddy's credit card..).. I want to know what a kollel wife thinks about such an issue. PLEASE DON"T RESPOND TO THAT ISSUE HERE******
Also, let's say I want to know why is it that sephardim think that the only place for the woman is the home and that she is not allowed to work, or why is it that in the frum world we accepted the idea of working in the home, or why is it that some chassidim do things off the books, or why lubavitch does certain things, or why there is a sentiment that working men don't learn so much, or why did the litvish have something against the chassidim?
Do you get my drift?
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BeershevaBubby
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:40 pm
| miriamf wrote: | | YESHASettler wrote: | | But the last sentiment happens to be a valid one, sorry to say. The other two are again, poorly worded opinions, but not necessarily bashing enough to close down an entire thread. |
The last sentiment is a valid one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your post has convinced me there is no hope for klal yisroel so deeply rooted is our hate of other groups that we see nothing wrong. Forget guys. Moshich is not coming. I just can't see how he would want to. |
So you deny that there isn't a 'stigma' in the Kollel communities about men who work instead of learn? That working instead of learning for 4,5, 10 years isn't looked down on? That learning is what all 'good' Torah men should strive for?
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gonewiththewind
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Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:52 pm
| YESHASettler wrote: | | miriamf wrote: | | YESHASettler wrote: | | But the last sentiment happens to be a valid one, sorry to say. The other two are again, poorly worded opinions, but not necessarily bashing enough to close down an entire thread. |
The last sentiment is a valid one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your post has convinced me there is no hope for klal yisroel so deeply rooted is our hate of other groups that we see nothing wrong. Forget guys. Moshich is not coming. I just can't see how he would want to. |
So you deny that there isn't a 'stigma' in the Kollel communities about men who work instead of learn? That working instead of learning for 4,5, 10 years isn't looked down on? That learning is what all 'good' Torah men should strive for? |
I don't understand what you are talking about. Obviously, people in kollel communities think learning for a number years is the right thing to do, or they wouldn't do it. But no one says it is for everyone. What should people do? Say this is what I am doing, but it is isn't really the best choice? Not respect talmidai chachomim because then we are not respecting others as much?
In your community, say you think all boys should go to hesder, so you are placing a "stigma" on those who you call draft-dodging yeshiva bachurim.
I don't know about eretz yisroel, but here even Lakewood which is the closest thing you have to a "kollel commmunity" has a majority of people not in kollel. For example, my only married nephew never learned in kollel for day and lives in Lakewood, and I asked him if he feels stigmatized, and he said no. I do know he has tons of friends here.
Last edited by gonewiththewind on Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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