"Kinks" in the system...

small bean

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:54 pm

[quote="YESHASettler"][quote="miriamf"][quote="YESHASettler"]But the last sentiment happens to be a valid one, sorry to say. The other two are again, poorly worded opinions, but not necessarily bashing enough to close down an entire thread.[/quote]

The last sentiment is a valid one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your post has convinced me there is no hope for klal yisroel so deeply rooted is our hate of other groups that we see nothing wrong. Forget guys. Moshich is not coming. I just can't see how he would want to.[/quote]

So you deny that there isn't a 'stigma' in the Kollel communities about men who work instead of learn? That working instead of learning for 4,5, 10 years isn't looked down on? That learning is what all 'good' Torah men should strive for?[/quote]

I think they put the stigma on themselves. I dont think kollel people think working ppl are bad. in my family, we have both and we dont look down on anyones lifestyle. I dont know any kollel guy that thinks he's greater then working ppl. I dont know anyone who thinks that every person belongs learning. maybe I'm wrong dont know.

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:56 pm

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

That isn't true. Most BY type schools tell their girls that they must marry someone who will learn for a few years otherwise they will have marital problems and children with issues. Marrying someone who will work immediately is seen as second best, and it's not a close second.

Learning longer than a few years? Obviously that isn't for everyone.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:57 pm

miriamf wrote:

I don't understand what you are talking about. Obviously, people in kollel communities think learning for a number years is the right thing to do, or they wouldn't do it. But no one says it is for everyone. What should people do? Say this is what I am doing, but it is isn't really the best choice? Not respect talmidai chachomim because then we are not respecting others as much?
In your community, say you think all boys should go to hesder, so you are placing a "stigma" on those who you call draft-dodging yeshiva bachurim.
I don't know about eretz yisroel, but here even Lakewood which is the closest thing you have to a "kollel commmunity" has a majority of people not in kollel. For example, my only married nephew never learned in kollel for day and lives in Lakewood, and I asked him if he feels stigmatized, and he said no. I do know he has tons of friends here.

And yet all you seem to read and hear about is how if you want a good Shidduch for your kids, the boy MUST BE a learner or how if you want to get your kids into a particular school the husband MUST BE a learner. You read about how Yeshivas tell the kids how terrible higher secular learning is and getting a job is bittul Torah... how is this all not taking a 'holier than thou' attitude?

shayna82

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:06 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

I went to a BY and this was never made the importance. never! it was actually hardly talked about as being "the way" of life.

creativemommyto3

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:07 pm

shayna82 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

I went to a BY and this was never made the importance. never! it was actually hardly talked about as being "the way" of life.

Many of the seminaries do.

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:09 pm

shayna82 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

I went to a BY and this was never made the importance. never! it was actually hardly talked about as being "the way" of life.

This is what I've heard from family members and friends who went to different schools of this type and I have heard it first hand from teacher at schools that I've worked in. Maybe you should give the name of your school so that more parents will send their girls there.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:12 pm

miriamf wrote:

Obviously I can't know about everything you read and heard, I am telling you the truth as I know it, no more, no less. You seem to want us to teach our children things we don't believe, and admit we are doing the wrong thing by learning and disrespect each other, as far as I can tell. Should we insist dati schools stop teaching zionism also?

You don't believe in math? English literature? Geography? Chemistry and biology?

And the thread wasn't about dati (although I assume you mean Dati Leumi since dati means religious).

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:16 pm

miriamf wrote:

Nope, but my point on the other thread (I'm not sure if it was my posts that were offensive to you or not) is that I know firsthand of people who are suffering because of what the kollel system has turned into. Once it's become an absolute MUST for everyone getting married then it is no longer about mesirus nefesh for Torah and the girls who want this, want a high quality learning boy who will sit and learn while she supports him and live a simple life are having a hard time. The ante has been upped and the sincere people suffer. I don't think kollel is wrong in general. In my school (granted it wasn't a BY) kollel in its purest form was presented as an option, one of many, and we had role models as teachers from different derachim. Why is that wrong?

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:20 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

miriamf wrote:

You don't believe in math? English literature? Geography? Chemistry and biology?

And the thread wasn't about dati (although I assume you mean Dati Leumi since dati means religious).

huh? now you have lost me. I have degree from a very good university, so of course I believe in those things, but I am not sure what that has to do with anything. I wrote that you seem to want us to teach things we don't believe, such as that it is not important to learn, and that it really isn't good to learn at all after marriage. That seems to be the only thing that will make people happy.

Shap_E

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:21 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

This is what the Bais Yaakov I went to taught. It was VERY much looked down upon if you didn't marry a learner. I believe it is the same in most Bais Yaakovs.

justanothermother

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:26 pm

cassandra wrote:

Thank you. This sums it up nicely.

Can you add an equally eloquent post about stretching limited tzedaka resources?

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:26 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

I have said many times that it is far far from perfect. If you would only know how hard it is for me too...yet I am not trashing it. I have heard from roshei yeshiva, that encouraging the masses to go to kollel is a horaas shoah, something not meant to be, but had to be done due to various reasons we can discuss if you would like. They see the problems, but believe the problems would be worse otherwise. You may not agree. That's up to you. Why can I not believe. Why is that wrong? Why has it become dispicable to follow talmidei chachomim?

Last edited by gonewiththewind on Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

small bean

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:27 pm

I went to a BY school in Lakewood, I dont think any teacher ever told me to marry a guy learning in kollel. I dont think any teacher ever put down a working man in lakewood - (I would remember bec that would mean my father). my parents dont stress the importance of kollel. I did not go to seminary. I got married almost right after high school to a kollel boy, because I wanted to. not because my friends were (they were in israel in seminary) not becasue my family bec at that time nobody in my family was in kollel. I think that girls whose husbands are learning see the benefits it has and want their family to have these benefits. there are a lot of things that I dont like about kollel, for ex. the schedule, but to me the pros outweigh the cons.. also kollel guys dont look down at working - it's a myth.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:29 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

That isn't true. Most BY type schools tell their girls that they must marry someone who will learn for a few years otherwise they will have marital problems and children with issues.

Which BY schools? I refuse to believe this is true since I know girls from many different BYs, and while some of them had issues with being told how kollel as ideal, no one was told it was a must, and no one was told there would be SB and chinuch issues Confused

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:29 pm

miriamf wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

miriamf wrote:

You don't believe in math? English literature? Geography? Chemistry and biology?

And the thread wasn't about dati (although I assume you mean Dati Leumi since dati means religious).

Sorry, the way you wrote the original sentence, I thought you were saying that secular studies was something that shouldn't be taught because it might conflict with what we are taught in Tanach classes.

No one is saying (and I don't believe anyone has EVER said) that it isn't a good thing to learn at all after marriage. What is being said are several things, the main ones being: the extent to which this is being taken and the expectation that everyone must do it, whether they can afford to or not.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:33 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

miriamf wrote:

This is absolutely not true.
My brother is currently in shidduchim. He is in the midst of getting a degree. He has no intention of learning in kollel* and he is getting so many suggestions (B"H...may one of them actually pan out).
Wonderful, wonderful girls. Who don't feel the least bit that they're getting worse prospects because they are looking for working men.
He's still a ben torah, despite this, and people realize that.
And he's not alone. Some of his suggestions have been passed on by friends with similar goals. The girls that are being redt have even come from some "choshuve" families that people on this board probably have heard of. There is not as much close-mindedness as is being purported.

*unless the wife explicitly tells him she wants him to, in which case he would for a few years, but he is not telling people that. He's presenting himself as a "worker"

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:34 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

miriamf wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

miriamf wrote:

You don't believe in math? English literature? Geography? Chemistry and biology?

And the thread wasn't about dati (although I assume you mean Dati Leumi since dati means religious).

We seem to live in different realities. Perhaps the confusion is the difference between eretz yisroel and America. I think things are more etreme there. All I know is what I see. And what you are saying is not what I see. Sorry.