Has the concept of tznius changed over time?

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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chanahlady

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:06 pm

Or are things getting stricter? Or looser? Was tznius the same hundreds of years ago as our concepts of it now?

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:07 pm

I think the concept is the same, but how the concept is applied has changed.

fish123

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:12 pm

I think people have become more focused on external expressions of tznius. Now it seems to matter more how much of everything is covered and what its covered with than the behaviors and middot that are also a part of being a tzanua person.

katb

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 12:28 pm

Didn't the biblical ladies basically cover everything except their eyes? In which case we have definitely become less stringent over time...

Atali

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 1:16 pm

katb wrote:

Didn't the biblical ladies basically cover everything except their eyes? In which case we have definitely become less stringent over time...

No, I don't think they wore vails. However, if I recall correctly there was a time when unmarried girls covered there hair at least somewhat, but I could be wrong about that.

newatit

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 1:38 pm

well said fish123 where I work there are many outwardly tznuit ppl and it seems that the more covered they are the less careful they are with their middot and how they treat other ppl

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 1:43 pm

fish123 wrote:

chocolate moose

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 1:50 pm

katb wrote:

Didn't the biblical ladies basically cover everything except their eyes? In which case we have definitely become less stringent over time...

Why is covering more better or stricter ?

Apple pie

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 1:52 pm

I have a hard time imagining the ladies in the desert with pantyhoses....

Seraph

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 2:04 pm

Apple pie wrote:

I have a hard time imagining the ladies in the desert with pantyhoses....

Me too, but I cant imagine them with knee length skirts either. Their skirts/robes probably swept the floor or near it, and they hence probably didnt need socks or pantyhose.

Atali

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 2:07 pm

newatit wrote:

well said fish123 where I work there are many outwardly tznuit ppl and it seems that the more covered they are the less careful they are with their middot and how they treat other ppl

I certainly don't think that is fair.

I have often noticed the opposite, that those who are more careful with tznius are also more careful with other halachos, such as shmiras halashon.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 2:09 pm

Nowadays, skirts/robes that sweep the floor aren't considered tzanua...

Atali

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 2:11 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Nowadays, skirts/robes that sweep the floor aren't considered tzanua...

Yet, Rabbi Falk acknowledges that people used to wear them but the minhagim have changed over time.

He also mentioned that it used to be the custom for married women to wear longer skirts than single girls as an extra measure of tznius.

fish123

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 2:44 pm

[quote="Atali"][quote="Hashem_Yaazor"]Nowadays, skirts/robes that sweep the floor aren't considered tzanua...[/quote]

Yet, Rabbi Falk acknowledges that people used to wear them but the minhagim have changed over time.

He also mentioned that it used to be the custom for married women to wear longer skirts than single girls as an extra measure of tznius.[/quote]

Why is longer considered an extra measure? An regarding your other comment about it "not being fair" -- an observation was made, not a generalization about all women.

orchidmom

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 3:06 pm

fish123 wrote:

so true.!.

ss321

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:18 pm

fish123 wrote:

well said fish

Flowerpot

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:39 pm

look back @ pics from the olden days my grandma wore skirts way above the knees and forget about shels fully exposed arms and all. I realy think it has improved.

Atali

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:42 pm

fish123 wrote:

Atali wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Nowadays, skirts/robes that sweep the floor aren't considered tzanua...

Why is longer considered an extra measure? An regarding your other comment about it "not being fair" -- an observation was made, not a generalization about all women.

Because she was more covered.

ss321

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:48 pm

flowerpot wrote:

look back @ pics from the olden days my grandma wore skirts way above the knees and forget about shels fully exposed arms and all. I realy think it has improved.

I dont define that as an improvement. It is a change in focus. is it a good thing? given the state of the secular society in which we find ourselves today, I would say probably it is. But I think Fish123 put it quite succinctly. Sometimes people (or our communities altogether) become so focused on the externals (as has seemed to be the case in the past few years- letters advocating women wear only rubber soled shoes in order that other womens' sons be freed from prison for drug trafficing? ), that sometimes I think people fail to remember that tniyus is not just about collar bones and kick pleats, but rather is about presenting oneself as a bas melech and dressing in a dignified way that is befitting royalty.

cassandra

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:56 pm

A piece of ironic family history that I just discovered:

From the pictures I have seen of my great great grandmother (in Poland) she wore sleeves and necklines that people today would think is inappropriate. She was married to my gg grandfather who was a well-respected Rav and mechaber sefarim. I have never had a problem reconciling those things, but the story got more interesting. The other day I was reading the "dedication" page in one of his sefarim and the adjective he found most fitting to describe his wife was.... "isha tznua". So yes, I completely agree with the premise that we've gotten much more bogged down with the details.

Every time there is a tznius thread here I contend that tznius is fundamentally a concept rather than a set of laws, since the actual halachos of tznius are very limited (R. Falk notwithstanding.) Yet people seem to get very caught up on the halachos and sometimes the other things are forgotten. Hence the Hot Chani phenomenon that extends to all communities, not only in terms of tight clothing but also sheitel styles, makeup application, and overall demeanor.

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