should it be morally "illegal" for some to be pare

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 7:39 am

I posted here so that I and whomever wants to can be anonymous.

do you believe that it should be morally "illegal" for some people to be parents? we just got back from visiting my in laws and let me tell you that it was no picnic at all.
my FIL emotionally abused my husband and his siblings while they were growing up and my MIL was always making herself out to be a martyr and they both never showed any love at all. my husband has a lot of emotional problems (that BH he is working on now) that I would just imagine, if he would have had different parents (ok, that does not make complete sense because if he had different parents he would be someone else, but this is a hypothetical question) he would not have these problems.

being emotionally abusive is one of the most terrible things that a parent can do to a child (and my FIL knows that he did and still does that to his children) and not showing any love to your children is also a terrible thing.

what are your thoughts?

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 8:19 am

grin wrote:

Hashem chose that nisayon for those particular neshamas as part of their reaching their own shleimus in this world, just the same as the other terrible nisyonos that each of us endure.

can you explain what you mean by reaching their own shleimus? I dont know that concept.

grin

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 8:26 am

the reason that Hashem brings our neshamos down to this world is so that each and every one of us can fulfill our own particular tafkid to perfect our very own chelek in this world. No other neshamo can fulfill the tafkid of another, as each one is tailor made for this - and this includes our individual strengths and weaknesses, tools, and life situation.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 8:35 am

grin wrote:

ok, I understand the concept that you are talking about and I can see that this has to do with my husband's neshama, fine. but what about his father and mother? they were only bringing in negative things into this world? weaknesses that they never tried to better? what of that? that is called sheleimus?

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 8:48 am

I have the same issue with my in laws and my DH, op.
My DH is also working on his past and working on the present, to be a good father and not a parent like the ones he was raised by.
I never really thought that my in laws shouldnt have become parents...just felt sorry for my DH that he was/still is put down and verbally abused and picked on by the woman who raised him.

ora_43

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 9:29 am

I don't think the question makes much sense... instead of "they shouldn't have had kids," why not say "they should have been better parents"?

If someone is incapable of being a loving parent due to mental illness or whatever, then they should not have children. But most people are able to improve themselves, and instead of being patur from having children due to whatever personality problems, they are obligated to fix the problems and then have children.

In any case, no abusive parent is going to listen to you, whether you're saying "don't abuse" or "don't have kids." Part of being abusive is the belief that your behavior is totally justified, meaning that you are a normal person and just as qualified to be a spouse/parent/whatever as anyone else.

chaylizi

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 9:33 am

lavendar wrote:

In the same light of what grin said, I've heard that before a neshama comes down, he himself chooses the family where he will be able to fulfill his tafkid.

I also heard this.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 12:32 pm

amother wrote:

im the OP. of course I feel very bad for my DH, but I also think that my in laws, BECAUSE they believet hat their behavior is justifiable, that they should never have become parents.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 12:33 pm

ora_43 wrote:

you are correct, but that being said, they never tried to better themselves, so then what?

also, there was no mental illness that "caused" the way that his parents acted.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 12:39 pm

Seraph wrote:

Its ironic that you need a license to drive but don't need to pass a test to parent. Some people would fail if they were to take a test first before being allowed to parent.

amother

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 12:45 pm

Ruchel wrote:

But it's very dangerous. Who gets to decide?
For the average [gentile] many of us are bad parents. Too many kids, started too young, oh and we push weird stuff on them.

OP here. but ruchel, im not talking about stuff like that. im talking about controlling and verbally and emotionally abusive. there is a very big difference between your examples and what I wrote.

Ruchel

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

But it's very dangerous. Who gets to decide?
For the average [gentile] many of us are bad parents. Too many kids, started too young, oh and we push weird stuff on them.

OP here. but ruchel, im not talking about stuff like that. im talking about controlling and verbally and emotionally abusive. there is a very big difference between your examples and what I wrote.

Some deem pushing halacha controlling if not abusive, unfortunately. And unfortunately often the abusers are clever enough to hide it...

grin

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 1:25 pm

just so nobody should misunderstand me - I'm not at all justifying any abuse the parent inflicted on the child. I"m sure that they will need to answer for this in shamayim, after their allotted years. Just as the child can't use their abuse of him to justify his own actions once he's an adult, the same obviously goes for them.

I was just answering the question of how is it possible for Hashem to grant children to such a parent and allow him to be abused as an undefended child.

grin

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 1:28 pm

Ruchel wrote:

amother wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

But it's very dangerous. Who gets to decide?
For the average [gentile] many of us are bad parents. Too many kids, started too young, oh and we push weird stuff on them.

OP here. but ruchel, im not talking about stuff like that. im talking about controlling and verbally and emotionally abusive. there is a very big difference between your examples and what I wrote.

Some deem pushing halacha controlling if not abusive, unfortunately. And unfortunately often the abusers are clever enough to hide it...

nobody normal forces their child to keep halacha - that's not chinuchi either.

energy

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 5:17 pm

abuse is a hard thing to understand.it just develops. what do I mean by that?I grew up in an abusive home it shook me to the core . iam 38 yrs and still struggling to keep going.my mother did not consciencely decide to be abusive. she could not have said to herself "I am a bad person . I am abusicve . icant raise children" at the time she settled down she felt sane and with all her senses working. my mother loves her children and she doesnt even know what she did wrong. all us five children are living with the ripple effects and we see as adults its a waist of time to keep crying about it. we take our sorrow and make ourseleves stronger from the pain and we are all much much much better parents to our children now because of what we went through all those years. beleive me we cried . but now we are building a better next generation.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 1:39 am

In the states I worked for CWS. Among my non Jewish colleagues there was a view that some people should be sterilized because of how they treat their kids. Especially the woman who told my partner that she was gonna keep havin' babies until you people quit takin' em. When you see records with pics (nightmare inducing), parents who put beer in the bottle because they sold the food stamps to buy beer and then remembered that there was no milk or formula, 5 year old left to babysit her 3 yr old and newborn siblings while Mom "works nights" or goes looking for a man and even a kid who ends up delinquent because Mom and Dad are busy career or society people who have no time for their kids. You have the kids who are the victim of vicious divorces and custody battles.

The problem is that none of us are perfect. While society has to act on these extremes, interfering with practices that seem to be with in normal parental choice can be a slippery slope. A formerly abused child who has gotten help and worked it through can actually be a better parent. Its a choice and it takes work but you have a sensibility others don't have.