Shaking hands with men

Toot

Fri, Sep 11 2009, 1:36 pm

FraydaSue wrote:

OP here. So far, I've been a clone of Toot! After the first day or so, the people normally realise that I'm frum and then they say something like, "oh, I shouldn't shake your hand should I?", and then give me a hug!!!

Well, can't say the hug thing has ever happened to me! Unless you count bumping into former non-frum classmates, who just hug me and I sort of stand there super awkwardly til it's over. But then I have no problem saying "Sorry buddy, no hugs for you." It's just the business/social norm setting with new acquaintances that's different.

chaylizi

Fri, Sep 11 2009, 2:11 pm

elf123 wrote:

Not intended as bashing so not posting as amother:
To the ladies who are doctors, or in medical fields, or in med school:
Are you telling me it was paskened for you that as a medical professional, you are allowed to touch your male patient and his various body parts, but not allowed to shake his hand? I find that hard to believe. If you tell me you asked a shaila and that was the answer, I'll accept that, but I'm truly curious. I will now wait patiently for an answer so as not to seem like I am doubting anyone.

everyone has their own psak. my father went into pediatrics for that reason. you can't generally avoid it completely though. adolescents are part of pediatrics too.

someoneoutthere

Fri, Sep 11 2009, 3:30 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

grin wrote:

someoneoutthere wrote:

If none of that works, I tell them I don't shake hands with unrelated males. If they seem uneasy I might throw in (depending on the person and circumstance) "I was taught not to touch that which isn't mine". My father used to use that a lot and people were genuinely appeased.

I understood that was the Lubavicher Rebbe's answer in such situations.

I've heard this too, but I don't know of any source.

Since I also don't know of a source for that, I only quoted someone I know for a fact would answer that.

-Another thing I often tell people, whether my husband is there or not is "My husband is the one who shakes the men's hands. I only shake hands with women. next time you see him, shake his hand twice." I usually tell that to people who I know, but forgot for the moment and extended their hand.

Tzippora

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:09 am

I'm going to get bashed, but I find it embarrassing on a professional level. Not shaking hands with men is far from the only or even the primary psak out there, and as a matter of fact I know prominent rabbonim who shake hands with women if necessary.

It's another place where various people's chumras come back to me in the workplace of - why is this person so weird and not do X. It is uncomfortable and considered antisocial. The answer is that that frumperson is being machmir and making other people uncomfortable. Nobody says anything to your face, but when they find another Orthodox person, you'll bet they'll ask. And I've had questions asked about people my co-workers had business with 20 years ago!

I'm never embarrassed about what I need to do as a frum person - I'm out the door on time on Fridays, despite indeed experiencing some grumbling - I also try to make sure it has minimal impact on my co-workers when it's not necessary.

Tzippora

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:54 am

Atali wrote:

But someone who holds otherwise can just as easily say that your kulos are making it harder for them.

Although some rabbonim permit it in certain situations, calling not shaking hands a chumra isn't accurate, when even those rabbonim who permit it certainly don't think its ideal practice (and therefore don't encourage handshaking among frum Jews, for example).

That's not necessarily true that it's considered a step down. Particularly among yekkes, where I am guessing it was accepted in social situations even among frum people (based on my experiences, I can check that to confirm). Hence, not a kulah. And one more person shaking hands, frum or not, doesn't change the fact that it's the accepted thing to do, so it doesn't make it any harder for the person who chooses not to.

There are many different approaches to it, but the bottom line is that many rabbonim, especially historically, have had no problem with contact considered "lo b'derech chiba", especially something as clear cut as handshaking.

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:58 am

Atali wrote:

Thank you, Atali. It's very funny that "not shaking hands with men" is seen as a chumra. If anything, "shaking hands with men" is a kula. A kula that many rabbeim will give for certain business purposes, in which case people who listen to their rav and shake men's hands are correct in doing so.

So if my rav says that I should avoid shaking men's hands, then I'm not being "machmir" by listening to him, any more than someone who is ashkenazi is being "machmir" by not eating rice on pesach. (Yes, I know the two are not equivalent - one is minhag and the other is a psak of a specific rav - but in both cases, it's not up to the person to say "I'm going to ignore my minhag" or "I'm going to ignore my rav's psak.")

octopus

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:58 am

flutterfly wrote:

A NJ at work once extended his hand to me and I started by saying "we don't-", he cut me off and said "oh right, you don't". Apparently, he was familiar. It would have been a lot harder if the previous frum person had shaken his hand.

But, everyone should ask their own Rav or LOR, certain circumstances may be different.

I have learned though I'm sure that many ppl hold differently, that once a hand is extended, the story changes. That's why I always make sure to cut in first (before anyone extends their hands) that for modesty reasons I can't shake my hands but I can wave.

octopus

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:02 pm

oh and here is a story:

after I gave birth the ob extended his hand to congratulate me upon the birth of my son. I didn't say anything and shook it. He just saw EVERYTHING, and I didn't think it would make sense for me to say, "well, for modesty reasons...." He then tried to shake my doula's hand and she said she doesn't shake men's hands. I didn't feel funny at all. My reason still stood. He didn't just deliver her baby and sew her up.

Last edited by octopus on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:03 pm

Tzippora wrote:

I'm not a yekke. And it doens't matter to me what other rabbanim historically did. My rav paskined for me that I should not shake hands with men in the workplace. Do you want me to tell him, "No, I don't want to listen to you because it might make things harder for frum people who want to shake hands?"

In addition, it DOES make it harder. As someone who has worked in a non-frum company with other frum people, it definitely does. Anything that we did differently made it harder. If one person was fine with eating salad cut with a treif knife, what was the other person supposed to say to her coworkers to explain why she couldn't eat it? And if my rav paskined that salad cut with a treif knife should not be eaten, should I ignore what he said because my coworker might be embarassed when she eats it and everyone else asks her why?

There are always sticky situations when people have different psaks in one company, or with one group of coworkers. But I don't think that ignoring what your rav said is the answer...

Tzippora

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:09 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

I am not arguing what individuals can do. But I'm going to say that the shift toward being machmir on this subject BY RABBONIM is the issue. I do think it is a problematic psak and I think the rationales behind that psak are weak, which is why I believe it is a chumra.

There are many cases where I've seen people knowingly be machmir, rather than just follow what they think is halacha. And when it is a religious requirement, it's one thing, but being machmir in many cases is a chilul Hashem. I'm still hearing stories about one person who would not look at female co-workers, which is certainly a chumra, makes other people uncomfortable and is embarrassing to be around as a frum person, never mind as someone secular.

Also, if I should care what your rabbonim and ancestors did, you should care what mine do or did. My yeshivish rav father and my yekke grandfather somehow BOTH got the idea that shaking hands was not even a shaila as it is not b'derech chiba.

And when I believe something is not a religious requirement, I usually just say "some rabbis say X, some rabbis say Y. I do Y, they do X".

Tzippora

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:12 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

Also, if I should care what your rabbonim or ancestors do, you should care what mine do or did. Somehow my yeshivish father and my yekke grandfather both got the idea that shaking hands was not even a shaila as it is not b'derech chiba. And this is in many many sforim and sifrei halacha - nobody's making this idea up.

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:19 pm

Tzippora wrote:

And when I believe something is not a religious requirement, I usually just say "some rabbis say X, some rabbis say Y. I do Y, they do X".

I think that's a wonderful way to respond. The same way I would respond if a coworker said to me, "But the other frum coworker in this office said she won't eat X because it's not old enough or something (yoshon)." I wouldn't be upset that she put me in a difficult situation, nor would I think that her rav shouldn't have told her to do that, or that she shouldn't have been machmir on that. I would just say that some people do X, but I do Y, and that while some religious Jews do Y, many do X instead. I dont' think there's anything wrong with that, nor do that I think that my coworker would be making a chillul Hashem by telling people at work that she keeps yoshon. (Of course, that might be too complicated to explain...but the idea still stands.)

I'm not a rav, but I trust my rav to have learned up the sugyas well and to be paskining based on his understanding. If I didn't trust him to be doing that, I would get another rav. I'm sorry that you don't trust that my rav understands the halachos of shomer negiah as much as you do.

(I also trust that your rav has learned up the sugyas well and understands them. And therefore, if he's your rav, and he says you can shake hands with men at work, then you are obviously correct in doing so.)

amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 1:50 pm

Quote:

"I was taught not to touch that which isn't mine".

How do you explain then shaking hands (or even worse) kissing women? are they yours?

To OP, since you know in advance that you will be giving the seminar, I think the best is to tell everyone in the crowd in advance that you cannot shake hands. Maybe someone can introduce you, and explain this as your custom, or wahtever.

I find that when we have a scheduled meeting (me or my dh) with people that don't know us, it's very helpful to explain in advance that we don't do this/ that for this reason and thus avoid the embrassement of the hand refusal.

Tzippora

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 4:26 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

And when I believe something is not a religious requirement, I usually just say "some rabbis say X, some rabbis say Y. I do Y, they do X".

But then the co-worker inevitably wants to know what the basis for Y and X are, and so I end up in a position where I end up explaining the sugya TO them. And yes, I do have to tell them when I think various aspects of Jewish practice are misguided, because then they ask WHY I do one or the other. That does put me in an uncomfortable position, and I'm not going to justify another point of view when I don't believe in it.

I do not believe that not shaking hands is a very legit point of view based on halacha. I do understand why people are machmir in many contexts, but I don't believe that a professional environment is an appropriate context for chumra. It's very different than eating yashan, which is not directly tied to your employment.