Why do(n't) you live in Eretz Yisrael?

shalhevet

Thu, Apr 20 2006, 3:00 am

I was sitting here lonely on imamother while all of you people in Chutz La'aretz are having another day yomtov and I was wondering what made you stay there.

According to the Ramban it's an obligation to live in Eretz Yisrael and according to almost everyone it's a mitzva kiyumit (I.e. you don't have to, but you get a mitzva for it) to do so.
I live in Israel, not because I'm a zionist in the conventional sense (we're so non-zionist we don't vote in the elections here!) but because it's a mitzva. We would ask a shaila if it's mutar to leave even temporarily for a specific reason.

So, to all of you in Chutz La'aretz, why are you there?

Have you considered moving here?

Have you ever asked a shaila if your circumstances justify living in Chutz La'aretz?

chavamom

Thu, Apr 20 2006, 8:17 pm

I lived there for 9 years (and dh for 15). We came to the US "for 3 years" for a kiruv position that dh took. Once we were here, we asked sheilas and were told not to go back Sad

. I understand the reasoning though it upsets me.

Last edited by chavamom on Thu, Apr 20 2006, 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 20 2006, 8:24 pm

We got a brocha from the Rebbe to live in Detroit where my husband has parnassa (BH). I am very proud though that my son and his wife and baby boy( keneinahora) live in Sanhedria ( neighborhood in Yerushalayim). He comutes every day to Hevron where he learns half a day and works for a shaliach the other half.

amother

Thu, Apr 20 2006, 11:32 pm

I am at the point where I want to move to Israel but am completely confused and unsure of when is the right time. I moved to ISrael on my own and have lived there for 3 years until I met my husband in "Chul". We stayed here b/c at the time he was studying for his degree and now we're still here, with really no excuse.
We do not live in a community that is growing, there is no Eruv, jewish schools, kosher stores..and we do plan to move..I guess for the time being we are "comfortable" here.
When we go to ISrael on vacation, we love it and want to stay on, but when we come back we are settled and get "lazy". I guess when the kids get older and we need a school for them we will loook into it more seriously.

Maybe our hesitation is also due to the "matzav" (situation) we greatly despise the governement and the way the country is running.

Motek

Fri, Apr 21 2006, 9:38 am

Decades ago, my father asked his rosh yeshiva this question and was told that if his standard of living would drop by moving there, he is not obligated to move there.

I have a question for you, mummyof6 - how come numerous gedolei Yisrael, roshei yeshiva, and rabbonim who live outside of Eretz Yisrael do not urge their followes, talmidim, congregants to move to Eretz Yisrael?

Maybe, if you read the thread on aliya in the chinuch section of this forum, you will see some of the reasons why those with families don't move there. As to why newlywedded couples don't move there - I've never heard chareidi leaders urging people to do so. Why?

And why is this in the Controversial section? I haven't heard any controversy about this. Those who are zionistically inclined promote it, and those who aren't, don't.

Shouldn't this be in the Judaism section as a religious issue - a discussion about the mitzva obligation?

shalhevet

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 2:13 pm

amother wrote:

I guess when the kids get older and we need a school for them we will loook into it more seriously.

Maybe our hesitation is also due to the "matzav" (situation) we greatly despise the governement and the way the country is running.

Don't wait - it's easier for the kids the younger they are.

As far as the matzav / politics (also to hardwrknmom) it really has very little impact on people living in frum communities on a day to day basis.

shalhevet

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 2:21 pm

Motek wrote:

I have a question for you, mummyof6 - how come numerous gedolei Yisrael, roshei yeshiva, and rabbonim who live outside of Eretz Yisrael do not urge their followes, talmidim, congregants to move to Eretz Yisael.

And why is this in the Controversial section? I haven't heard any controversy about this. Those who are zionistically inclined promote it, and those who aren't, don't

Maybe they don't urge everyone because it isn't for everyone. That is why I originally asked if people had asked a shaila or if they are just in chutz La'aretz because it is comfortable financially or otherwise for them.

I explained originally that this has nothing to do with being Zionist. (We are extremely not Zionist) It has everything to do with eretz Yisrael being the country in which you can keep the most mitzvot. Today, practically, I believe, to the majority of frum Jews it provides the oppurtunity for living a more spiritual life (as well as better chinuch etc.)

I thought it might spark a controversy, so I put it here. (Like Chalav Akum, hair covering etc - don't they belong in the Judaism section according to your way of thinking)

shalhevet

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 2:48 pm

Motek wrote:

Forgot to also add that of course many Gedolim from the Gaon Mivilna and the Baal Shem Tov and onwards have encouraged/ sent talmidim to EY (and then it was much harder than today)

newmom

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 10:18 pm

[quote="mummyof6"]

As far as the matzav / politics (also to hardwrknmom) it really has very little impact on people living in frum communities on a day to day basis.[/quote]

How can you say this when frum people were kicked out of their homes???!!!!
How can you say this when frum people are injured or killed during terrorist attacks?
Don't get me wrong, I think that yishuv eretz yisroel is very important and am curious to see how people will respond to this thread, but don't make incorrect sweeping comments like the one quoted above.

amother

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 11:09 pm

Quote:

As far as the matzav / politics (also to hardwrknmom) it really has very little impact on people living in frum communities on a day to day basis.

That may be a problem. It seems as though religious and non-religious alike are living their lives, without feeling or truly realising what is happening around them. How grave the situation is becoming and what the future holds. I am no pessimist but a realist. Slowly things are becoming OK in the country, from giving the PA weapons to letting them vote and elect....As time goes on, it just seems like we are headead for more disasters Rachmana Litzlan. And there sits the jew in the Holy land...are we simply in denial???

TzenaRena

Sat, Apr 22 2006, 11:17 pm

the Lubavitcher Rebbe was asked on numerous occasions about this, and it would be worthwhile to look up what his answers are. For one, the Rebbe did say that throughout even more recent history, most Jews lived in Chutz l'Aretz, the Gedolei Yisrael included. Halachically it is not an obligation.

Moreover, living in Eretz Yisroel obligates one to uphold a much higher standard of Torah & mitzvah observance, because it is "palterin shel melech', and a much worse slight to the Divine presence to transgress there r'l. One must be honest with themselves before going to live there whether they are prepared to do so, because it is no small matter.

What Chassidus does say is as the Tzemach Tzedek (3rd Lub. Rebbe) told one of his Chassidim, who wanted to go to Eretz Yisroel: "mach doh Eretz Yisroel" transform your own environment, wherever you are into eretz yisroel. There are many sichos that elaborate on this saying. Eretz is from the root "ratzon", and "ratzesoh", why was it called Eretz? "she'ratzesoh laasos retzon konah" It was her desire to do the Will of her Master. also the word 'ratz', to fulfill the desire of the Creator with z'rizus, alacrity.

IOW, by living one's life in the manner of fulfilling our Creator's Ratzon with enthusiasm and alacrity, running to do this, we transform our physical environment, wherever it may be, to be holy, and elevated.

binah918

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 2:07 am

I made aliyah one year ago, though I can't say it was for such lofty or idealistic reasons. I didn't decide to come because I'm an ardent Zionist or because of mitzvas yishuv E"Y. I just like it here, period. (Actually, sometimes I feel a bit guilty that this very major / important decision to build my life and family in E"Y was not made with more ruchniusdik intention...)

I don't neccesarily advocate aliyah for anyone and everyone. I often think of what the Tzemach Tzedek (and SaraYedudis!) said, "Mach doh E"Y." It's so very true! Even in E"Y it's true, as we're FAR from our ideal.

B"H, I find that living in E"Y has helped strengthen me in unexpected ways. I am becoming increasingly aware of making a true Kiddush Hashem/Lubav. wherever I go. Tension between the "Dati" and "Chiloni" communities runs high, and I see making a Kiddush Hashem as part of my special shlichus here.

Sof kol sof, if we ALL "Mach doh E"Y," no matter where we are scattered around the globe, we will merit to ALL reap the reward together in the ultimate E"Y and Yerushalayim HaBenuyah!

shalhevet

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 1:44 pm

newmom wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

As far as the matzav / politics (also to hardwrknmom) it really has very little impact on people living in frum communities on a day to day basis.

How can you say this when frum people were kicked out of their homes???!!!!
How can you say this when frum people are injured or killed during terrorist attacks?
Don't get me wrong, I think that yishuv eretz yisroel is very important and am curious to see how people will respond to this thread, but don't make incorrect sweeping comments like the one quoted above.

You are right of course. I wasn't trying to say ch"v that these things aren't important. I was just trying to make the point that for most frum Jews in Eretz Yisrael this isn't a reason not to come. Did everyone leave NY after 9/11 even though frum Jews were involved? I was very surprised to see that people gave this as a reason not to live here.

Motek

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 1:50 pm

newmom wrote:

How can you say this when frum people were kicked out of their homes???!!!!
How can you say this when frum people are injured or killed during terrorist attacks?

I agree!

I don't see the comparison to 9/11 since the Israeli govt. is hell-bent on self-destructing and doesn't give a you-know-what for the security of its people. I haven't gotten the impression that the U.S. govt. is determined to commit national suicide even though they can be doing better in the security dept.

Quote:

(Like Chalav Akum, hair covering etc - don't they belong in the Judaism section according to your way of thinking)

[the Chalav Akum thread is a repeat of an identical discussion in the Married section (which is why I'm not reading it, not interested in repeats) and there are numerous hair coverings scattered in the Judaism/T.H./Married/Emotional sections.]

gryp

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 7:41 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

As far as the matzav / politics (also to hardwrknmom) it really has very little impact on people living in frum communities on a day to day basis.

Mummyof6, perhaps if the frum communities would let it impact them a bit we wouldnt be in so much trouble???!!!!!!??? Rolling Eyes

I love the land, but it's a sick country to live in. Sad

amother

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 7:54 pm

After 2000 years of not having a country that we can call ours its surprising how many people choose not to live there! So many people died, including Gedolim, just trying to set foot in the holy land and here we are willing to just live comfortably in Chul..If our great grandparents were alive with our financial capabilities they would move there.
Besides, the mitzvas you do in Israel are definitely holier then in Chul. There is an inyan that says that the obligation to preform mitzvas is only in Israel. Also, in Israel, as a previous poster mentionned, there are many mitzvas that only pertain if you live in the Holy land.

TzenaRena

Sun, Apr 23 2006, 8:15 pm

GR wrote:

I love the land, but it's a sick country to live in. Sad

on one of our visits to E"Y for a family simcha, we ran unexpectedly into alot of aggravation from the Israeli bureaucracy.

after it was all straightened out, one of the officers involved asked my husband whether he would like to make aliyah.. To which he responded "no". "Why not?" asks the guy? my husband answered: what does it say? le'echol mipiryoh v'lisboah mituvah (to eat from her fruit and be satiated from her goodness) and then immediately Rachem noh Hashem Elokeinu(Please have mercy upon us 'o L-rd our G-d)..... LOL