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-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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 Tue, May 30 2006, 12:57 pm
| Quote: | | there have also been stories where ppl have been stolen from israel and brought to the chassidim in america, to try to keep them religious |
Oh please, How do you STEAL people?? I'm sure they weren't packed into suitcases. And these were parents with children, whole families together. And how many families, 5 or 10 or 15?? (And not everything the Israeli papers scream against Chassidim is true.)
| Quote: | | As for the issue of the Temani children - I recall that there were some serious allegations made several years ago. IIRC, most of the claims weren't substantiated. Children did go missing in the transit camps and the parents often didn't know what was going on - but that was largely due to the chaos of the situation, where the new state, already struggling from the War of Independence, suddenly had to absorb so many new immigrants from Arab/Muslim countries. The population pretty much doubled within a few years. They didn't have the infrastructure to deal with the immigrants, so they ended up in huge transit camps. The camps were extremely basis - people living in muddy tents, even basics like proper food was a problem. Under such conditions, some of the children got sick and became separated from their parents. |
YOu might as well deny the holocaust too, no??? I posted above about my aunt's fathers 2 little family members being stolen and you dare to say the claims weren't substantiated. Who dismissed the allegations?? The Same Government that stole the children. Of course they dismissed it. Do you know what it means for a father and mother, granparents, sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles to long and yearn and cry for these missing little babies growing up who knows where and with what education. Should I explain to you the what sleepless nights "HUNDREDS" yes HUNDREDS of Parents/siblings are suffering for the past 50 or so years?? I wish you never know such pain. This is a very painful part of the life of someone so close to me so please watch how you speak about it. I suppose you should read about some of the books on this topic, because there are many and most of them are horrific.
The Secular Israeli Govt are Reshaim and Ganovim.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:00 pm
Crayon | Quote: | Why did the Zionists set up a system in which Jews would have to die to save Jews? Why couldn't everyone just live peacefully? WAS A STUPID "STATE" REALLY WORTH EVEN ONE JEWISH LIFE?
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and In response to YTWH | Quote: | Right, but if there were no state, those Jews would not have to die protecting its citizens.
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YWTH, I don't see any proper discussion with people who say there should be no army, or there should be no state, I don't understand how they can't see all the miricles of hashem to allow us to return here, and more than that they don't realize the alternative to us having a Jewish state and how terrible that was at points through our history. how can one suggest that we shoulden't have done the hishtadlut to live here and not among the non jews who abused us.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:01 pm
| Quote: | | I don't think it is relevant any longer |
HUH !!
I should tell my aunt that she and her family stop mourning for their lost children because it isn't relevant anymore.
One thing, I am thankful that none of you knows what it means to have kids stolen and taken from you and I hope you never do.
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Blossom
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:10 pm
Amother, I can see you are speaking from the pain for seeing your aunt and her family suffering like that. Of course these stories are true, how I wish they weren't!! Those were horrible crimes committed by the Govt.
You have every right to be hurt.
To all other posters: I don't think this whole E''Y topic is a discussion that we should discuss. You will not change my views and I won't change yours, as long as we are following our leaders and rabbanim. This topic was something that great gedolim do no agree with one another, so obviously we, the followers also won't.
Sorry,I don't see the Tachlis in discussing this topic unless you are takke not discussing it for a tachlis, but then please let's do it with utmost respect and ahavas yisroel for one another.
Last edited by Blossom on Tue, May 30 2006, 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ruchel
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:25 pm
| Mamushka wrote: | | Today is Yom Hashoa. How many of our relatives would still life if we would have had Israel back then. |
You mean, if some rabbis didn't say they would be excommunicated or go to hell if they went to Palestine?
| Quote: | | Life in France is getting really hard for Jews. Guess where they come to. E"Y. It's not easy, but it's still the best place for a Jew to be. |
They often go to America or England because they fear terrorism and social problems. Imho, buying something smaller in a better area would avoid many problems.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:42 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Right, but if there were no state, those Jews would not have to die protecting its citizens. |
before there was a state there were still many men that were "soldiers" in every sense of the word, defending eretz yisrael. so it was not a state as it is today, but it was still being defended by jews who wanted to protect their brethren and land that they sowed.
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JRKmommy
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Tue, May 30 2006, 1:52 pm
| Quote: | | As for the issue of the Temani children - I recall that there were some serious allegations made several years ago. IIRC, most of the claims weren't substantiated. Children did go missing in the transit camps and the parents often didn't know what was going on - but that was largely due to the chaos of the situation, where the new state, already struggling from the War of Independence, suddenly had to absorb so many new immigrants from Arab/Muslim countries. The population pretty much doubled within a few years. They didn't have the infrastructure to deal with the immigrants, so they ended up in huge transit camps. The camps were extremely basis - people living in muddy tents, even basics like proper food was a problem. Under such conditions, some of the children got sick and became separated from their parents. |
YOu might as well deny the holocaust too, no??? I posted above about my aunt's fathers 2 little family members being stolen and you dare to say the claims weren't substantiated. Who dismissed the allegations?? The Same Government that stole the children. Of course they dismissed it. Do you know what it means for a father and mother, granparents, sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles to long and yearn and cry for these missing little babies growing up who knows where and with what education. Should I explain to you the what sleepless nights "HUNDREDS" yes HUNDREDS of Parents/siblings are suffering for the past 50 or so years?? I wish you never know such pain. This is a very painful part of the life of someone so close to me so please watch how you speak about it. I suppose you should read about some of the books on this topic, because there are many and most of them are horrific.
The Secular Israeli Govt are Reshaim and Ganovim.[/quote]
Anyone who is interested can do a search, read up on the Cohen Commission's report which was released in 2001, and come to their own conclusions.
I certainly don't mean to insult anyone - but I also can't simply accept at face value everything said by totally anonymous posters on the internet.
I'm not denying the pain of any family involved.
I am saying that if children are missing - you don't know what happened. Was there a death, a mix-up, an adoption, a deliberate taking of the children? Who knows?
I have some very serious concerns about labelling other Jews as reshaim and ganovim in the absence of evidence, and also about applying such serious labels to an entire group of Jews - even though many in the government weren't even born when these events happened.
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gryp
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Tue, May 30 2006, 2:37 pm
| Quote: | | Regarding the post from that amther who had relatives in ths, I feel very bad - but I don't understand where in the chafets chaim it says that Lashon Hara is permitted if it is against Medinat Yisrael!? |
yes, if we stop learning history, it will be even easier to deny what happened.
and there will even be no need for Zionist propaganda either!
those that dont learn history will be bound to repeat it!
| Quote: | I certainly don't mean to insult anyone - but I also can't simply accept at face value everything said by totally anonymous posters on the internet.
I'm not denying the pain of any family involved.
I am saying that if children are missing - you don't know what happened. Was there a death, a mix-up, an adoption, a deliberate taking of the children? Who knows?
I have some very serious concerns about labelling other Jews as reshaim and ganovim in the absence of evidence, and also about applying such serious labels to an entire group of Jews - even though many in the government weren't even born when these events happened. |
here we go.
will you tell your children and grandchildren about Gush Katif and what happened there on Tisha B'av 2005?
not only are you repeatedly foolishly denying history, never mind insulting a poster here who has made it clear that her relatives were involved in this, but you havent even bothered to do simple research about it, you just keep on repeating the denials.
theres even a thread about it on this very forum, if you are interested in knowing what happened.
its nice to close off your ears and then talk about "absence of evidence" and irrelevancy.
even if it happened years ago, it looks to me that the State of Israel is still up to its tricks.
for those of you who say I should come there and make it better, you should know that it was always my dream when I was younger to live in Israel.
but having spent a lot of time there, the plain truth is, that its not for me. its not my mentality, and some of the things there about the Chareidi system just doesnt sit well with me.
for those that enjoy it, enjoy living in our beautiful land. I miss it every day, and you are lucky to walk on the holy ground and breathe the holy air.
but unfortunately, its just not for me.
I have a different tachlis in life.
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Crayon210
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Tue, May 30 2006, 3:03 pm
| amother wrote: | | I personally agree with JRKMommy, I have no idea how Crayon can say a flat out NO, without any way of backing it up even...Even if it wasn't so obvious how hashem has given us back the ability to live in Eretz Yisrael. |
Because if the Gemara specifically says that something is assur, and the gedolim pasken that it is assur, then we can't say that it's what Hashem wanted.
| Quote: | I did not make anything up your answers to posts are like this (clearly made up example)
green cherries in winter are forbbiden because the lubavitcher rebbi said so, as opposed to I hold that green cherries in winter are forbbiden because the lubavitcher rebbi said so. |
You've misread my posts.
| Quote: | | I don't understand, I clearly answerd that. If you want to belive it is avoda zara that is nice for you, there are numerous gedolim who would very much disagree, so how can you continue to say it s against what hashem told us to do? I don't see much point to this discusion if people will continue to insist the same info time and time again irrelavant of what is said here. Not much of a give and take discussion. |
There are numerous gedolim who say that it's avoda zara. I don't have to say it must not be because some people say otherwise.
| Quote: | | I didn't say it is just one or tw but there is a reason why the Satmar Rav's opinions stick out! They are in the minority! |
WHAT?
The Satmar Rav's opinions stick out because he wrote an entire sefer on the topic, duh. This is not the minority opinion, sorry to tell you.
| Quote: | | What on Earth? who are you to decide who is and who is not a gadol? (and please don't tell me how many people you know that say that he's not or that you're Rav holds that he is not) Rav Aviner us a huge Tzaddik and Gadol. But it is very easy to prove only your own view to be correct when only the people you choose are gedolim! |
As I said in a different post, I've never heard that Rav Aviner was a gadol. It is news to me now.
| Quote: | | So let me understand this, where you are in brooklyn or whereever you are in chul is A: better than Moshiach, B"2nd Best. It has to be one of those...or actually I would say it's 3rd best. Let me be clear, Moshiach unfortunately is not eretz Yisrael you would be settling where as living where you are you are not settling? You can't have it both ways. a common example of settling is lets say when someone settles and gets married to someone not so perfect for them because they are afraid they are running out of time or wont find the right person etc. That is settling because one you get married you can't have anyone else (unless chas vishalom divorce) moving to Eretz Yisrael is NOT settling for a lesser that will take away from anything - certainly not the coming of Moshiach (you know we say the Ani Maamin's from here too! If anything since you are not compromising moshiach by coming here, you are only gaining, because you are in E"Y as opposed to Chul (not as opposed to Mashiach). are you going to argue with this? |
I do not understand a word you have said here.
| Quote: | | I can write a book on this so I'll keep it short. Just living here you feel like you are doing so much more to bringing moshiach, living here you feel you like Moshiach is really on his way. (and yes we should belive this whereever we are but it helps to feel it so strongly here.) |
I'm not talking about feelings and other niceties. I'm talking TACHLIS. Does living in Eretz Yisroel by itself bring Moshiach closer?
Don't know of a source for that.
| Quote: | I understand you (the rebbi) do not hold this way but many hold that this
(this meaning having a state, witnessing the ingathering of exiles and numerous numerous outright miracles) are actually the very beggining of the geula. |
Yeah. And many hold that it delayed the geulah. I don't believe that both are true. I believe that one is wrong. Sorry.
| Quote: | | but even as you hold that it is more of an all at once thing, there is still a strong feeling that after 2000 years hashem has gave us back the ability to be here, and it is like a slap in the face to him to say no we'd rather be in chul. We already made this mistake before in the times of Ezra and Nechemia, sadly history repeats itself. people not only make the mistake again, they find every way to rationalize it as being emet. |
It's not a slap in the face if gedolim have said that the state itself is a slap in the face.
| Quote: | | Most gedolim, but it is a reasonable question and I will try to get you a more specific answer as I get a chance. |
Thank you, since I don't think you're correct about "most".
| Quote: | | for a real answer get the tape from Rav Berel Wein about Chicago in 1947/48 I think it's on his Yom Ha'atzmaut tape but I'm not sure. I think Ponevetch not only raising the flag but saying Hallel is probably also a good indicater of things back then. facse it much of our world, and the way we practice judaism today looks much much different but this again is a whole new topic. |
Berel Wein is extremely biased, sorry to tell you.
| Quote: | | What you are saying here is ridiculous we are talking about different opinions among the gedolim, if you say only your side is true, not only do you know the concept of "alu ve'elu" you are disrespecting many gedolim, so correct not a mitzva, maybe an aveyra. |
If my gadol/gedolim say it's avoda zara, then I don't have an obligation under "eilu v'eilu" to believe that avoda zara is actually fine for some people.
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Crayon210
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Tue, May 30 2006, 3:06 pm
| ytwh1 wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | Right, but if there were no state, those Jews would not have to die protecting its citizens. |
before there was a state there were still many men that were "soldiers" in every sense of the word, defending eretz yisrael. so it was not a state as it is today, but it was still being defended by jews who wanted to protect their brethren and land that they sowed. |
There were people defending Eretz Yisroel before Zionism was born? I was not aware of that. Can you give me more information about that?
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JRKmommy
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Tue, May 30 2006, 3:55 pm
GR - please read my posts and amother's posts carefully.
She said that a relative of hers had missing children, and didn't know what had happened to then.
I never said that the children weren't missing. Rather, I pointed out that we don't know exactly what happened. There is a difference between saying that the children were missing, and accusing people of deliberately kidnapping them. I've learned that we cannot make serious allegations, esp. against other Jews, without being sure of the truth of the allegations.
There have been 3 inquiries, the last of which took 6 years, and the report met with some criticism. I have no way of knowing exactly what happened - I wasn't there, I haven't personally evaluated the evidence. I have visited the camps in Poland and there is ample evidence that I've heard from many survivors. I was in Israel just prior to the Gush Katif evacuation and saw the footage. I know about the conditions in the transit camps because I heard about them directly from my in-laws and saw the documentation at the museum in Or Yehuda. I don't, have not and will not, accept theories or anonymous statements on the internet, as proven fact.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2006, 6:24 pm
I'm the amother of the aunt with missing family members. They didn't go missing. They were STOLEN. I am shocked that someone has not heard about it and even more so, making it seem as a bit a disillusioned history. Some consider it a mini-holocaust for the fact that parents were seperated from their children. It's OK, you don't have to believe me. Hashem knows and remembers and that's what counts.
BTW, In the Sefer Chofetz Chaim it says if someone is known to be going against the Torah l'hachas then he isn't considered as part of Klal Yisroel. That's why I don't see anything wrong on using such terms on these secular Israeli Government officials who ripper families apart and ripped Torah and Yiddishkeit of countless thousands, millions whatever.
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amother
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Wed, May 31 2006, 11:21 am
AMother (I think) | Quote: | | The Secular Israeli Govt are Reshaim and Ganovim. |
[/quote]JRKmommy Anyone who is interested can do a search, read up on the Cohen Commission's report which was released in 2001, and come to their own conclusions.
I certainly don't mean to insult anyone - but I also can't simply accept at face value everything said by totally anonymous posters on the internet.
I'm not denying the pain of any family involved.
I am saying that if children are missing - you don't know what happened. Was there a death, a mix-up, an adoption, a deliberate taking of the children? Who knows?
I have some very serious concerns about labelling other Jews as reshaim and ganovim in the absence of evidence, and also about applying such serious labels to an entire group of Jews - even though many in the government weren't even born when these events happened.
| Quote: |
I Think this post by JRKmommy is very reasonabe, there are people who have suffered and were missing children, but there seems to be very differen't versions of what really happened, now obviously many of the anti state people will show it as the state stealing children, while the state has it's opinions (I think something to the effect of the numbers are much less than some claim, and that they went missing due to things more like unability to handle the massive olim situation properly then.
I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but I don't neccesarily believe everything the state will say, at the same time I do't neccesarily believe everything the charedi community (or parts of it, or even my own community) say's at face value. I think it is a big mistake that we frum always rally around each other and defend things we have no idea about as if we witnessed the whole thing ourself. (a recent example that was most shocking to me was the Eda Haredit father who was accused of abusing his baby, (baby died) and the follow up to that in that general Eda community. I know I am drifting, I just wante dto say we need to really think about things objectively.
I really disdain the amother who said that because of this event the Israeli govt. are ganovim, - please say reuven or shimon who is a member of the strawberry juice party is a ganov and a cheat, but don't generalize to the whole structure.
To drift a bit more I understand if people attack bush, kennedy, or peres or rabin etc, I don't get when people attack the entire institution of govt, so please hate bush or olmert or whomever you please but it is impossible to judge an entire structural system based on the merits (or lack of) of certain politicians.
Therefore I very much agree with your last paragraph, JRK.
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amother
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Wed, May 31 2006, 11:47 am
In response to the ongoing discussion beween myelf and crayon, I feel as if you keep bringing up the same answers again and again. Irrelavant of how many times I answered.
I also feel as if I am the only honest fair one, I always try to be fair and objective, (is the other person right?, we all make mistakes and can't stand to learn from others.) now I'm not saying to change our positions and or to not follow the gedolim who we follow, but rather to say I hear and understand your side and the gedolim who say that. after all I don't thnk this is about changing each other but more about understanding the other side, that it exists and that it is not nessesarily wrong.
my posts will proove that I have full respect for a Satmar holding their anti zionistic beliefs, because they clearly have a gadol to reply on. The same apply to luavitch, although more and more I'm starting to wonder just how representative crayon's views are of the rebbi. But that is fine and that often happns that different people interpret their gadol differently.
my point is that while I have strong beliefs and feelings I can respect the other side, if there is no mutual respect I see no reason to waste my time with this. I will admit crayon that some of your recent posts may prove me partially wrong (ie about Rav Aviner) and In this respect I would love to be proven wrong. but here is one clear example.
| Quote: | | There are numerous gedolim who say that it's avoda zara. I don't have to say it must not be because some people say otherwise. |
It's you believe in the rabbanim and the torah then it is not Avoda Zara for those with Poskim who hold it is not. while basing your own practical halacha for yourself, you should also respect people who hold from other gedolim. that simple.
| Quote: | | I do not understand a word you have said here. |
I will explain again, I apoligize for the confusion.
Very simple there is no settilings, settlings means you wanted a but you take B in a situation when you can only have one of them. coming to Eretz Yisrael is not everything, but it is a major step up and even if it was not it is still not settlings because a Jew coming to E"Y is certainly not delaying moshiach! so there is no logic to saying I won't come to E"Y because I won't settle for anything less than Moshiach.
| Quote: | It's not a slap in the face if gedolim have said that the state itself is a slap in the face.
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Of course it is, even if you hld from those gedolim, so what? what kind of exuse is it not to make aliya because you don't like the state? the fact is hashem is enabling us to be here and we are away.
| Quote: | | Berel Wein is extremely biased, sorry to tell you. |
This to me is a classic, I have debated these issues before and this is one of the classic cop out answers. so you don't like Rav Wein, a little Kavod please.
I skipped a few silly posts but otherwise most of your posts with the answers you keep repeating (such as kesubos) can be answered very easily, anyway I promised I would answer that so I will address in the coming posts a few of these central issues and then there really is little debate.
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amother
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Wed, May 31 2006, 1:06 pm
| Quote: | How many times do I have to quote Kesubos 111a? Is anyone going to look it up?
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Yes this is like the biggie that you have used to justify quite a lot,
so with thanks to my dh (and his rav and chavrusa) you should know this.
The oaths are mentioned as aggada. Not Halacha!
(Yet there is a halachah that one ought to try to settle and gain
sovereignty over Israel. There is little precedent for taking an
aggadic statement over a halachic ruling.)
and
It should also be
noted that these oaths are only mentioned as a side point in one place
in a discussion in the Gemoroh and as the viewpoint of an individual.
In any case
* they were annulled by the UN 29.11.47
* The oaths were not brought in the major Halachic books; on the contrary. (Shulchan Aruch EH 75 3-5, Rambam Melachim end of chapter 5, Ramban Mitsvat Asse 4 and many others.)
(I have quoted Ramban Mitzva Assay four, please note though even the Rambam who disagrees that it is one of the 613 agrees that aliyah is still a most praiseworthy mitzva. There are many more sourses to this but heres the Ramban.
| Quote: | | "The settlement of the Land (of Israel) by the Jewish People is a positive commandment… which applies in every generation and obligates every one of us, even during the exile." The Ramban, Suplement to Book of Mitzvot, Positive Commandment #4 |
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Ruchel
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Wed, May 31 2006, 1:13 pm
| amother wrote: |
| Quote: | | "The settlement of the Land (of Israel) by the Jewish People is a positive commandment… which applies in every generation and obligates every one of us, even during the exile." The Ramban, Suplement to Book of Mitzvot, Positive Commandment #4 | |
If I remember well r' Hayim Isrul the grandson of Menachem Mendel of Kotsk agreed.
| Quote: | In 1886, he published his book "Shalom Yerushalayim", in which he requested that the Orthodox Jews of Poland settle in the Land of Israel.
"They should purchase land and settle there, work the land, and bring out bread from the land with their own toil in agriculture and other occupations" |
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shalhevet
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Wed, May 31 2006, 1:47 pm
In support of amother:
As far as I know only Satmar hold that to live in EY today is to transgress the 3 oaths.
All the mainstream gedolim don't hold like this, whether Litvish or chasidish, Sephardi or Ashkenazi.
The Ba'al Shem Tov (whom I'm sure Crayon holds by) and the Vilna Gaon sent their talmidim to settle EY at a time when no one had thought of zionism. Many other gedolim throughout the generations came to, or tried to come to, live in EY.
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amother
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Wed, May 31 2006, 2:48 pm
| Quote: | | As far as I know only Satmar hold that to live in EY today is to transgress the 3 oaths. |
Living there does not since Satmar is very big Kehilla in Eretz Yisroel. I also have Satmar friends who went there after getting married to learn.
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Crayon210
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Wed, May 31 2006, 2:52 pm
| amother wrote: | The oaths are mentioned as aggada. Not Halacha!
(Yet there is a halachah that one ought to try to settle and gain
sovereignty over Israel. There is little precedent for taking an
aggadic statement over a halachic ruling.)
and
It should also be
noted that these oaths are only mentioned as a side point in one place
in a discussion in the Gemoroh and as the viewpoint of an individual.
In any case
* they were annulled by the UN 29.11.47
* The oaths were not brought in the major Halachic books; on the contrary. (Shulchan Aruch EH 75 3-5, Rambam Melachim end of chapter 5, Ramban Mitsvat Asse 4 and many others.)
(I have quoted Ramban Mitzva Assay four, please note though even the Rambam who disagrees that it is one of the 613 agrees that aliyah is still a most praiseworthy mitzva. There are many more sourses to this but heres the Ramban.
| Quote: | | "The settlement of the Land (of Israel) by the Jewish People is a positive commandment… which applies in every generation and obligates every one of us, even during the exile." The Ramban, Suplement to Book of Mitzvot, Positive Commandment #4 | |
I am glad to see all this, but numerous gedolim hold that the oaths ARE applicable l'halacha and they were NOT annulled by the UN.
I'm not interested in debating who says what; it's not relevant to me. The gedolim I respect hold that Zionism is avoda zara, and that's the end of that. A debate on imamother.com is not going to change the minds of the gedolim.
If this is relevant l'ma'aseh, one should ask her rav for direction.
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