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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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 Sun, Apr 23 2006, 11:52 pm
| Quote: | | After 2000 years of not having a country that we can call ours its surprising how many people choose not to live there! |
I still don't call it ours since Moshiach hasn't yet come. I love the Land to the bottom of my heart and of course pray for it and its redemption constantly and for the yidden living there.
But Hashem has sent us into exile 2000 yrs ago and we have to wait for him to redeem us which would be with the Coming of Moshiach.
May we all be zoche to it speedily in our days!
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gryp
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Mon, Apr 24 2006, 10:46 am
I dont see how you can possibly live comfortably and happily in Israel with the things that go on there with the government.
if I lived there I would probably become one of those wacko frum people that start shooting Arabs in the middle of nowhere.
its a good thing I dont live there.
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miriam
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Mon, Apr 24 2006, 10:49 am
| GR wrote: | I dont see how you can possibly live comfortably and happily in Israel with the things that go on there with the government.
if I lived there I would probably become one of those wacko frum people that start shooting Arabs in the middle of nowhere.
its a good thing I dont live there. |
I agree with you there, gr.
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tweety99
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Mon, Apr 24 2006, 11:32 am
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not everyone can afford to live in israel! its not so easy to just pick up and move there! especially wen ur used to higher standards of living.
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Mamushka
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 11:29 am
It really makes me sad reading this thread. I live in Israel and I can walk around at night by myself. How many Americans feel free to do so? How much antisemtism is going on in Europe? No, life is not easy here, but believe me it's not any easier in "Chul". YOu are used to your countrie's problems. You can deal with them. Things on TV, radio,... always sound different than when you actually live it. In "Chul" you don't care that the president fools aorund, the Government is corrupt,... It's the Goim. Here in Israel it's our people. Noone would get excited about it if it wouldn't be Jews doint these things. Yes it hurts me. I don't read Newpapers since it's hurts me that a Jewish man can abuse his kids,..... Things are not great, but B"H we are on the way to make the world and E"Y a better place.
Just want to add another thought. Today is Yom Hashoa. How many of our relatives would still life if we would have had Israel back then. Life in France is getting really hard for Jews. Guess where they come to. E"Y. It's not easy, but it's still the best place for a Jew to be.
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gryp
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 11:39 am
Mamushka, I think this thread is sad too. but the saddest part is the national suicide the Israeli government so enjoys.
I dont know where you live, but all the cities in Israel that ive been to, are not safe to walk around by night in.
Yes, it hurts worse when a government made up of Jews are willing to sacrifice their own people and take sides with the Arabs.
I dont read the news about Israel either anymore, ever since before the Expulsion of Gush Katif.
For me, living in Israel would be just too close to the problems I care about so much.
I'll stay here in America, where I can barely bear them from far away.
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 12:43 pm
Emotionally, I understand why some posters prefer not to live here in E"Y. They say that the government's self-destruction and treatment of Jews is just too painful for them to bear. It hurts them so much they need to stay as far away from it as possible. I really do understand this. I live here and beleive me, it is painful to be so close to these problems.
Still, is this a justifiable reason not to come to E"Y? (Btw, I'm playing devil's advocate. I beleive each person/family needs to do what is right for them and I do not beleive that aliyah is the best move for everyone...) I can understand if a person decides not to come to Israel because they feel they have a special shlichus where they are presently in "Chul." (We already spoke about "Mach doh E"Y.") But since when do we shy away from our own, national problems because it's too painful to bear?
We don't abandon our non-frum brethern because it's just too hard and painful to see them be mechalel shabbos, eat treif, etc. On the contrary, we sacrifice so much to be mekarev them. We go to the ends of the earth to set up Chabad Houses. We travel to places where kosher meat/milk may be virutally impossible to get, where the mikvah may be a long plane ride away, where there is no chinuch for our children, where there is openly displayed anti-semitism. We throw ourselves into the most difficult and painful situations to do this mitzvah: to help even one Jew come closer to Yiddishkeit.
Well, guess what!? E"Y needs our shlichus too! True, it's not easy to live here. It is truely painful to read the newspaper every day. But does E"Y not merit just as much sacrifice as a non-frum Jew!?
Even for those who say the government is self-destructing, etc., there's more to living here than the Knesset. I made aliyah and got married less than one year ago, and while I'm still getting used to my drastically new life I couldn't help but recognize how much good I could do in my own daled amos. I've reached out to non-frum women, organized an English-speaking Rosh Chodesh group, arranged a chavrusa with a seuclar university student, etc. This is my shlichus and get what, (sadly) there's enough to go around.
I can understand why some people/families decide not to make aliyah. Some families truley feel their shlichus is elsewhere. Kol HaKavod to them. They are being true to "Mach doh E"Y."
But please, please understand that even with all the problems that exist here, you should not shy away from E"Y, but rather feel even more responsible for coming here and improving the situation with your unique shlichus.
Again, remember than we sacrifice everything to go to the other ends of the earth for just ONE Jew! We put ourselves in physically, spiritually and materially compromising situations just to reach out to one more neshama. There are so many neshamas that need to be touched here in E"Y!!!
Again, emotionally I understand that's it's so hard and painful to be so close to the problems here, to be so close to the govenment's butchery of this country. But please give E"Y the kavod it deserves and be just as willing to sacrifice emotional and physical comfort for E"Y as you would be to sacrifice your comfort to reach another Jew.
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 12:46 pm
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Oh, and for the record, I feel much safer walking around my neighborhood here than in Chul. Anyone looking for a nice community to settle in? Check out Givatayim, just outside of Tel Aviv. We're looking for more families to join our shlichus!
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Crayon210
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 12:48 pm
| binah918 wrote: | | But please give E"Y the kavod it deserves and be just as willing to sacrifice emotional and physical comfort for E"Y as you would be to sacrifice your comfort to reach another Jew. |
Is there a source for this? Because as far as halacha is concerned, a Jewish person comes before Eretz Yisroel (as in, if giving up land would truly save lives, it would be obligatory to do so...)
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Mamushka
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:15 pm
Sorry Crayon, but it always depends which Rav you listen to. There are plenty of Rabanim who said that E"Y is a Yerusha and we are not allowed to give even a tiny little bit...
On Shabos I just hear a very good drasha. I can't quote and bring the sources The Rav gave. I will try to give you the bottom line though. If all Am Israel would cry for Am Israel and not each individual only for his/her own problems "ayin beayin yiruh". Everything that happens in E"Y is all Jews problems. If we can't live here in E"Y no Jew will be able to live peacefully in "Chul". And no we can't change the world by running away from problems. The only way solve problems is by dealing with them.
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:28 pm
Crayon, for the record, the hitnatkut touches precisely on this machlokes: pikuach nefesh vs. giving up E"Y. I'm not well enough versed in the halachos and the arguments to go through them for you, but to be sure, this is a machlokes. There are many, many opinions. Many well-respected Rabbanim would say just the opposite!
To clarify what maybe wasn't so clear: We're so willing to go on shlichus to the most crazy and insane places to reach another Yid. We go to places that are so hard to bear, places that are far from "spiritually nourishing." We sacrifice so much emotional and spititual comfort to touch just one more Jew.
If we're willing to go to Timbuktu and throw ourselves into such a spiritually difficult environment for one shlichus, shouldn't we be just as willing to go to E"Y, also with it's spiritually/politically difficult environment, for another shlichus?
Some people say that E"Y's problems are too painful to be so close to, but should that really keep us from making a difference here? It's not easy anywhere, and yet as Jews (and as Lubavitchers, for whom it applies), we have such an important obligation to go beyond ourselves and make sacrifices for the greater good. Certainly a shlichus here in E"Y, or "Tikun E"Y," if you will, is worthy of this sacrifice.
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Crayon210
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:30 pm
| Mamushka wrote: | | Sorry Crayon, but it always depends which Rav you listen to. |
Shulchan Aruch?
| Mamushka wrote: | | There are plenty of Rabanim who said that E"Y is a Yerusha and we are not allowed to give even a tiny little bit... |
Even if it would save Jewish lives?  Who says this?
| Mamushka wrote: | | Everything that happens in E"Y is all Jews problems. |
Isn't that true of anything that affects any Jew, anywhere in the world?
| Mamushka wrote: | | If we can't live here in E"Y no Jew will be able to live peacefully in "Chul". |
I thought this all depends on Hashem, not on the political situation in a secular state. 
| Mamushka wrote: | | And no we can't change the world by running away from problems. The only way solve problems is by dealing with them. |
Maybe some people would rather concern themselves with bringing Moshiach than worry about the politics of a secular state that happens to be run by Jews.
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:45 pm
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Crayon, the Lubavitcher Rebbe argues on more than one occasion that giving up land in E"Y actually endangers Jews and cites the Shulchan Aruch, Orech Chayim, 329. It says that even if non jews come to a city on the border of E"Y, ("ayarat sfar"), we are obligated to fight them, (even on Shabbos)! This is true even if the dispute has to do with something as remote as "Iskei kash v'teven / An argument about hay!"
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Crayon210
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:47 pm
| binah918 wrote: | | Crayon, the Lubavitcher Rebbe argues on more than one occasion that giving up land in E"Y actually endangers Jews and cites the Shulchan Aruch, Orech Chayim, 329. It says that even if non jews come to a city on the border of E"Y, ("ayarat sfar"), we are obligated to fight them, (even on Shabbos)! This is true even if the dispute has to do with something as remote as "Iskei kash v'teven / An argument about hay!" |
That's true, but the Rebbe's position is that if giving up land WOULD save Jewish lives, then we would be obligated to do so.
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Mamushka
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 1:54 pm
| Mamushka wrote: | | There are plenty of Rabanim who said that E"Y is a Yerusha and we are not allowed to give even a tiny little bit... |
Even if it would save Jewish lives? Who says this?
Do a research on everything written about Gush Katif.
| Mamushka wrote: | | Everything that happens in E"Y is all Jews problems. |
Isn't that true of anything that affects any Jew, anywhere in the world?
It's true, but noone is in such a denail as Jews living in "Chul".
| Mamushka wrote: | | If we can't live here in E"Y no Jew will be able to live peacefully in "Chul". |
I thought this all depends on Hashem, not on the political situation in a secular state.
Everything in this world depends on Hashem. Let's just sit back and do nothing, because food will just fall infront of us when we are hungry...
| Mamushka wrote: | | And no we can't change the world by running away from problems. The only way solve problems is by dealing with them. |
Maybe some people would rather concern themselves with bringing Moshiach than worry about the politics of a secular state that happens to be run by Jews.[/quote]
Is there a different way of bringing back Moshiah than making Mitzvos? No matter who is running the country????
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Crayon210
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 2:00 pm
| Mamushka wrote: | | Do a research on everything written about Gush Katif. |
This is not a source.
| Mamushka wrote: | | It's true, but noone is in such a denail as Jews living in "Chul". |
What does this mean?
| Mamushka wrote: | | Everything in this world depends on Hashem. Let's just sit back and do nothing, because food will just fall infront of us when we are hungry... |
I'm sorry, but I'm sick of seeing this attitude of "Bad things will happen if Jews don't live in Eretz Yisroel." R"L, plenty of bad things happen and Jews DO live in Eretz Yisroel, and this attitude is not a hishtadlus, it's an avoda zara, because many have taken Gd out of the picture and replaced Him with a secular state.
| Mamushka wrote: | | Is there a different way of bringing back Moshiah than making Mitzvos? No matter who is running the country???? |
If your proposed solution to the problems in Eretz Yisroel is to do mitzvos, why do I have to be in Eretz Yisroel to do that? Doesn't Hashem know what mitzvos I'm doing wherever I am?
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shalhevet
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 2:54 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | binah918 wrote: | | But please give E"Y the kavod it deserves and be just as willing to sacrifice emotional and physical comfort for E"Y as you would be to sacrifice your comfort to reach another Jew. |
Is there a source for this? Because as far as halacha is concerned, a Jewish person comes before Eretz Yisroel (as in, if giving up land would truly save lives, it would be obligatory to do so...) |
I don't understand the connection between the question and the answer!
No-one is talking about giving up your life for EY. Binah said maybe people should be willing to lower their living standards a little in exchange for the amazing zechus of living in EY.
BTW, where are all the (Jewish) towns in EY where people are afraid to walk around alone at night? I don't know of many. You are invited to our town (with a fairly large non-religious population) to join me for a midnight walk.
I am still totally at a loss to understand those who say they don't want to live here because they don't like the government. Come and help make EY better!
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gryp
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:03 pm
| Quote: | | I am still totally at a loss to understand those who say they don't want to live here because they don't like the government. Come and help make EY better! |
make it better???
I keep hearing from people on this site:
-that it doesnt affect the frum population that much?
-that they dont even vote in elections?
-that the frum crowd has no influence on what goes on in the Knesset?
-that they vote what theyre told to even though it will mean they will lose their home!?
no thank you.
I sure am not going to go live in a country where the government is ready to sacrifice my land, my home, my children, and my life.
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shalhevet
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:12 pm
Guess you just want to live in a country where the government
"halacha hi she'eisav soneh es ya'akov"
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amother
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:13 pm
| Quote: | | I sure am not going to go live in a country where the government is ready to sacrifice my land, my home, my children, and my life. |
Then you'll have to move to the moon.
Almost every country has historically done some or all of the above to their Jewish population over the course of our long Galus.
We can pray and hope that this won't happen in America, but we know what happened to German Jews who believed that.
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