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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
gryp
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 Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:23 pm
I'm not naive enough to believe that America isnt committing national suicide as well.
but isnt it just wonderful, that Israel is the FIRST to do these things? and just so intent on it too.
| Quote: | Guess you just want to live in a country where the government
"halacha hi she'eisav soneh es ya'akov" |
oh its much better than when yaakov soneh es yaakov.
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shalhevet
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:24 pm
[quote="GR"] | Quote: |
-that they dont even vote in elections? |
We are following our Rav. Is that OK for you?
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:29 pm
Crayon, if giving up land "WOULD" save lives...? Who in Lubavitch, which leading Rabbanim, have accepted that we're at that point, where we're ready now to give up parts of E"Y for "peace?" Last time I checked the Lubavitch community was one of the most adament about retaining ALL of E"Y.
The Rebbe makes it clear that giving up ANY land is inherently dangerous for the Jews. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Giving up land = Danger and more Jewish blood. CV"S.
(Hitvaduyot Tav-Shin-Mem-Gimmel, Vol. II, pg. 647; Hitvaduyot Tav-Shin-Mem-Bet, Vol. I, pg. 371; Hitvaduyot Tav-Shin-Mem-Vav, Vol. I, pg. 608...and many, many more.)
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gryp
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 3:40 pm
| Quote: | | I am still totally at a loss to understand those who say they don't want to live here because they don't like the government. Come and help make EY better! |
| Quote: | | We are following our Rav. Is that OK for you? |
how do you propose to people to come make it better if you dont believe in voting?
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binah918
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 4:01 pm
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GR, I agree with you. It is difficult to understand how one proposes to change the current political situation without participating it in, (even as hopeless and pointless as that participation may seem at times). I voted for the first time this year, and while I wasn't thrilled with my options I felt like I was doing my small part...
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shalhevet
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 4:11 pm
| GR wrote: |
| Quote: | | We are following our Rav. Is that OK for you? |
how do you propose to people to come make it better if you dont believe in voting? |
GR, as far as I remember you are always for asking a rav - or is that only if my rav says the same as yours does??
I believe that with every mitzva we do here, every time a frum Jew creates a kiddush Hashem (even by smiling or giving directions in the street) and, yes, by the very fact that, bli ayin hara, the frum community is growing, we are making a difference.
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Blossom
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 5:00 pm
I would love to live in E''Y. But I think that will happen once Moshiach comes bez''h . For now our plan is only visits.
Moshiach hasn't come yet so that's why we aren't all living in Eretz Yisroel. When Hashem will send us Moshiach he will gather his people from all the corners of the world and then we will all go up to Eretz Yisroel.
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gryp
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 7:01 pm
mummyof6- was I accidentally rude to you? im not sure why you are saying the type of things you are.
| Quote: | | I believe that with every mitzva we do here, every time a frum Jew creates a kiddush Hashem (even by smiling or giving directions in the street) and, yes, by the very fact that, bli ayin hara, the frum community is growing, we are making a difference. |
thats an interesting idea, thank you for explaining.
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Crayon210
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 7:30 pm
binah, you're not reading what I'm writing. I never said we're at the point where land for peace would save Jewish lives.
But the Rebbe's feeling toward the land in respect to Jewish control of it was because it would be dangerous to give back. IF there were a situation in which Jewish lives would be saved, then land for peace is halachically obligatory. I'll have to go look for the Rebbe's letter to that effect...
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Ruchel
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Tue, Apr 25 2006, 7:36 pm
My husband and I decided we would not make aliya because:
- my parents are here in France
- financial crisis in Israel
- the politics! (we know too many people unhappy with Israeli politics who became bitter and always complaining)
- security/terorrism
- my husband finds that the Israeli in general are not very "refined" and he says he doesn't want our future children to become like this 
Moreover I have to say life is nice in France, esp. when you live near Paris (biggest community in Europe) - unless you live in a "bad" area.
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Mamushka
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 2:11 am
Has anyone ever thought about Hishtadlut. Maybe Hashem gave us the opportunity to live in E"Y, because HE wants us to be here. WHy would we have E"Y today if Hashem wouldn't want us to live here. I'm not saying that everything is perfect and we still have to become a lot better to be Zoche for Moshiach to come. Is there anywhere written that you are not allowed to live in E"Y before Moshiach will come? Are you complaining that E"Y is not religious enough? Move here! Make a difference! One more religous Jew will be able to vote for a religous party. More religous vote will make the religous parties stronger.
Sorry, but I have not seen one country who's politics where to my liking. Every country has their problem. It hurts me to see what is happening in our country, but what keeps me going is my believe in Hashem.
Please don't fool yourself that you as Jews are loved in "Chul"! As was said before the German Jews felt save in Germany. They were proud Germans! I guess there is no need to remind you what happened.
Be sure that if we Jews can't live here in E"Y no one in this world will be happy to welcome us in their country. If instead of bashing the Israeli Government you would move here and make a difference Israeli politics would be different. If there would have been enough people to fight against Hitnatkut it would not have happened. It's just more comfortable to sit a warm and compfy home and complain than to act.
Yaakov Avinu send Esav presents... he made his Hishtadlut before he davened. Davening is very important, but it has to come with our Hishtadlut. Hashem will help us when we do what we have to do.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 2:56 am
| Mamushka wrote: | | Has anyone ever thought about Hishtadlut. |
Yes.
| Mamushka wrote: | | Maybe Hashem gave us the opportunity to live in E"Y, because HE wants us to be here. WHy would we have E"Y today if Hashem wouldn't want us to live here. |
I don't know; I'm not Gd.
| Mamushka wrote: | | Are you complaining that E"Y is not religious enough? Move here! Make a difference! One more religous Jew will be able to vote for a religous party. More religous vote will make the religous parties stronger. |
I don't want the secular state to be more religious. I want it to be gone.
| Mamushka wrote: | | Sorry, but I have not seen one country who's politics where to my liking. Every country has their problem. |
That's true, but Israel is the only place where Jews are murdered for being Jews right now, and where Jews are being forced out of their homes and all other kinds of horrible things. That's a little more than not liking the politics. 
| Mamushka wrote: | Please don't fool yourself that you as Jews are loved in "Chul"! As was said before the German Jews felt save in Germany. They were proud Germans! I guess there is no need to remind you what happened.
Be sure that if we Jews can't live here in E"Y no one in this world will be happy to welcome us in their country. |
Please don't fool yourself that you're safer because Jews took over the land of Israel. It's Zionist propaganda.
| Mamushka wrote: | | If instead of bashing the Israeli Government you would move here and make a difference Israeli politics would be different. If there would have been enough people to fight against Hitnatkut it would not have happened. |
As I said above, I don't want to change Israeli politics. I want there to be no more secular state.
Also, I don't think it's necessarily as simple as, "If more people were here this would not have happened."
| Mamushka wrote: | | It's just more comfortable to sit a warm and compfy home and complain than to act. |
Yes, you're right, we all live in two million dollar mansions and drive fancy cars. One moment while I call my butler to bring me another drink of Perrier. 
| Mamushka wrote: | | Hashem will help us when we do what we have to do. |
The secular state was founded by people who davka did the opposite of what you are promoting. It doesn't have the best track record when it comes to bitachon and emunah.
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shalhevet
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 4:40 am
| Quote: | Crayon 210 wrote:
Mamushka wrote:
Sorry, but I have not seen one country who's politics where to my liking. Every country has their problem.
That's true, but Israel is the only place where Jews are murdered for being Jews right now, and where Jews are being forced out of their homes and all other kinds of horrible things. That's a little more than not liking the politics. |
Heard of France? Russia? Iran?
The point is though, that you're right that Israel is probably the country with the greatest number of Jews being murdered because they are Jews.
I also agree with what you say about the state.
So ... if I agree with you, how come I live here?
Because one has nothing to do with the other! I live here because it's a mitzva, because I have the opportunity to do lots more mitzvos than in Chul (according to the Ramban all the mitzvos in Chul are only as a practice for coming back to EY. I live here because I feel I have the opportunity to live a lifestyle with less gashmius and more Torah. I live here because I think the education I can give my children here is far superior to that in Chul.
The disciples of the Gra and the Ba'al Shem Tov, the Ramban and Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, the Poneveisher Rav and the Chazon Ish didn't come to live in Eretz Yisrael because of who was or wasn't ruling the country at the time. They came because of the kedusha of Eretz Yisrael.
Many, many other important and simple Jews throughout the generations came, or tried to come and live here. They came in times when travel was dangerous and took months. They came when many people were living in abject poverty here.
Shouldn't that at least make one think that maybe someone is willing to lower their standard of living and endure a little discomfort? The situation here is (B"H and bli eiyin hara) that I imagine the chances of being killed by a terrorist are lower than other things I don't want to mention. As for the rest, we rely on Hashem whose eyes are on us with special Hashgacha Pratis here. (And we ask a Rav what is called a makom sakana that we shouldn't go there)
Again, I am not talking about particular circumstances when people have a good reason to be in Chul and have asked a Rav.
BTW-GR I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be nasty. Just got a bit upset that you were criticizing me for carrying out our rav's psak.
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tweety99
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 7:14 am
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u sure paris is the biggest community in europe?! im presuming you mean jewish community... I thought pple were moving out cos of all the anti semitism.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 8:07 am
| tweety99 wrote: | | u sure paris is the biggest community in europe?! im presuming you mean jewish community... I thought pple were moving out cos of all the anti semitism. |
Yes, Jewish community of course.
People (both Jews & non jews by the way) are moving out of bad areas (= poor, full of Arabs) only b'h.
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gryp
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Wed, Apr 26 2006, 12:06 pm
Mamushka- "maybe this or that" is not exactly a reason to live there.
| Quote: | | Please don't fool yourself that you as Jews are loved in "Chul"! As was said before the German Jews felt save in Germany. They were proud Germans! I guess there is no need to remind you what happened. |
It seems to me that Jews are more well-liked in Chul by non jews, than in Israel by the Israeli government.
Ever since Israel became a state, it has been involved in doing things against their own people, particularly the frum ones.
| Quote: | | If instead of bashing the Israeli Government you would move here and make a difference Israeli politics would be different. |
I dont see the frum crowd doing much already, and my big question is why NOT?
| Quote: | | If there would have been enough people to fight against Hitnatkut it would not have happened. |
if I recall correctly, it was the frum party who sold out gush katif for money.
| Quote: | | It's just more comfortable to sit a warm and compfy home and complain than to act |
yes, I need to restrain myself from far away. if I lived there I would probably be... in jail?
| Quote: | | BTW-GR I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be nasty. Just got a bit upset that you were criticizing me for carrying out our rav's psak. |
mummyof6- im sorry it came across that way. I wasnt criticizing, just wondering how you intend to change the state of Israel without being involved politically.
your ideology is nice, but I just dont share it.
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shalhevet
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Thu, Apr 27 2006, 4:47 pm
| GR wrote: |
your ideology is nice, but I just dont share it. |
Yes you do, because you don't vote in the Israeli elections either. 
The reason we don't vote is because anyone who votes for a particular party has a share in whatever that party does as far as being answerable after 120 years. Many times frum parties are a part of the coallition and then anyone who voted for them has a part in anything the government does. BTW I think all the religious parties were part of the coallition for some of the time the last government (plus Gush Katif issues) were in power.
A point no-one has seemed to make is that many Rabbonim said that it was asur to live in Gush Katif because of the sakana (danger). This, of course, is not meant to justify the nasty way that the government threw people out of their homes without making any reasonable provision for them.
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amother
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Thu, Apr 27 2006, 6:33 pm
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When asked your original question, "Why don't you live in Eretz Yisrael?", Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, the author of the Kuzari, answered "Matzata Mkom Cherpati", you have found the point of my shame.
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cindy324
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Thu, Apr 27 2006, 11:57 pm
Can I ask you guys a question? I read an article awhile back in the Jewish Press about 40 some families from America making Aaliyah. There was apic of them children and all, smiling , happy.
This is what I don't get. How are these parents able to take their children to a country where suicide bombings are as common as pickpocketing on the NYC subway system? How are they able to see their kids off every morning as they board the school bus, fearing they might not see them alive again? I cannot see myself living this way, fearing the phone ring and wait for bad news...
SO my question is if it is against Halacha to put yourself in a situation that has an extreme likelyhood of physically harming you, WHY would anyone put themselves in harms' way by moving to Israel and risking their lives every day just by getting on a bus to get to work, school, etc.??
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soraya
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Fri, Apr 28 2006, 12:13 am
I lived in E"Y for a long time. I made aliyah, and when we got married, we planned on spending the rest of our life there. The only reason we live in America is because our Rav told us that this is where we should be at this point. I am dreaming of the house I am buying in Rechassim for when I retire. I hope that my children will live in E"Y with me.
I HATE IT HERE! 
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