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Mamzer in Halacha

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Tefila

Thu, Jan 06 2005, 9:33 pm

What happens if a women out of desperation of not getting a get etc etc etc marrys a [gentile] her children are still Jewish but, mamzerim not? Confused

Last edited by Tefila on Sun, Jan 16 2005, 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

yehudis

Thu, Jan 06 2005, 10:48 pm

If the children's father is not Jewish, they are not mamzerim, because it's not considered a marriage. I think...

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Jan 06 2005, 11:00 pm

mamzerim are children of a married woman from other than her husband.

sarahd

Sat, Jan 08 2005, 1:46 pm

FY is right.

Tefila

Sat, Jan 08 2005, 8:33 pm

Sadly! I know of such a situation who marryed a [gentile] out of desperation after years of not being able to get a get.
And I just checked the children are not mamzerim b/c mamzerim is only from a Jew
There are other aveiros involved just not that!!!!

Rivka

Sun, Jan 09 2005, 8:47 am

I also know someone who was married to a Jewish guy had a kid and he abused her and then left her with all his debts, so she had to live in poverty for ages, she then met a non Jewish guy, but her husband wouldn't give her a get and she married the non Jew and had a child with him. Truth is she isn't very religious and doesn't care much for anything Jewish, but her non Jewish husband is the one that pushes for a seder on Pesach.
It is sad, but it happens. So the kids aren't mamzerim, which is good, coz I don;'t see why the child has to be punished.

Tefila

Mon, Jan 10 2005, 6:51 pm

Quote:

which is good, coz I don;'t see why the child has to be punished.

Rivka this is not our made up law but G-D's who obviously knew what HE was doing when HE made a law like this one. We mortals don't understand lots of things He does.
But that does not mean b/c we don't understand it is not fair!!
I mean does it seem fair that if a child is born to a jewish women they are jewish and has nonething to do with the man.
Hm, just thought about it this can also be put in 'feminism in Halacha' thread

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 10 2005, 9:44 pm

Quote:

I don;'t see why the child has to be punished.

if a jar is broken and glued back, it is still damajed.
if a jar is not the best quality or is defective, it is not as good as high quality.

remember the proper thoughts thread?

well, if a married woman willingly has relations with a man who willingly has relations with a married woman, there is something extremely wrong w/ BOTH parents (and they do not have proper thought either) and the child produced from such union has a built-in flaw.

It is not H" who punishes the child, but the sinning pair.

They both, especially the mother should think about what THEY ARE DOING TO THEIR CHILD before they do it. It is not H', it's people who do it to the children.

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 4:46 pm

The whole issue of mamzerius is way, way more complicated than you are explaining it, FY. It is not comparable to a broken jar that is glued back together. If it was so simple, a child from a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man would also have some sort of "broken vessel" status. Which s/he doesn't. Think about the following quote from Askmoses :

Quote:

Besides for the fact that a mamzer may only marry a spouse of the same ilk, a mamzer is a full-fledged Jew in all respects. In fact our sages tell us "A mamzer who is a Torah scholar takes precedence (in accorded respect, etc.) over an ignorant high-priest!"

The cohen gadol here appears to be "the more broken jar". Also, I was taught that there was at least one Rov in the gemara who had the status of mamzer.

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:23 pm

Quote:

a child from a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man would also have some sort of "broken vessel" status. Which s/he doesn't.

although not a mamzer, a child from a Jewish parent and non-Jewish parent is definitely "flawed" in that he/she has no yichus

Ozmom

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:36 pm

except that yichus that begins from him/her and continues to his/her children.

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:43 pm

yichus meaning no kohen/levi, yisrael - tribe-less Sad

so if it's a daughter, her children, if she marries Jewish, will have their status determined by their father

if it's a son, no yichus, ever, for his sons

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 5:50 pm

Quote:

It is not comparable to a broken jar that is glued back together.

mp, pls do not take my mashalim literraly.

Quote:

he whole issue of mamzerius is way, way more complicated than you are explaining it, FY.<...>If it was so simple, a child from a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man would also have some sort of "broken vessel" status.

1. plenty people out there who would not marry a Jew of 'mixed' parentagr

2. Big difference betw the 2:
in non-Jewish father case, there was a lack of knoeledge (if not frum) or lack of caring (in frum) case.

However, in a mamzer case we're talking about 2 people who disregarded the holiest of bonds - the bond of marriage, 2 people who cheated others, to whom they made a promice.
we're talking about 2 people who commited something, that is despised even by non-Jews, even in our frivolious times.

Just think, for satisfaction of a fleeting temptation they're ready to lose their spouse forever & to mabe even bring a mamzer into this world. What can you say of such people?!?

Not a charachter flow, but rotten personalities rotten to the core.

And this will take some time to repair.

(PS it bothered me a lot too when I was becoming frum, but this explanation made it clear. even coming from a non-frum world, I knew that infidelity is much much worse than a single person not guarding their morals)

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:08 pm

mamzerus is also caused by wonderful people who do not know that by marrying Jewishly but not divorcing Jewishly, the woman's next marriage will produce mamzerim (since she is still considered married to her previous husband)

this is a prevalent and very serious problem nowadays Sad

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:13 pm

however, this is not so simple, b/c a lot (not all) of people who knew enough to make hupa know that they need a get too but do not get it Sad

or can't b/c....... Exploding anger

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:21 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

however, this is not so simple, b/c a lot (not all) of people who knew enough to make hupa know that they need a get too but do not get it Sad

they are usually not knowledgable enough to realize the repercussions

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:52 pm

Quote:

so if it's a daughter, her children, if she marries Jewish, will have their status determined by their father

What does that mean ? Any woman's children have their status determined by the father. If the father is a Cohen, the children are cohanim, even if the mother is a bas yisroel.

Quote:

if it's a son, no yichus, ever, for his sons

And what does this mean ? His sons are Yisroel. Not nothing. Just as yisroel as any other yisroel, in fact.

The only halachic difference for a woman with a non Jewish father is that she is not allowed to marry a cohen. I do not know of any reprecussions of that sort for a male child. Please explain what you meant in your staments.

Quote:

However, in a mamzer case we're talking about 2 people who disregarded the holiest of bonds - the bond of marriage, 2 people who cheated others, to whom they made a promice.
we're talking about 2 people who commited something, that is despised even by non-Jews, even in our frivolious times.

Just think, for satisfaction of a fleeting temptation they're ready to lose their spouse forever & to mabe even bring a mamzer into this world. What can you say of such people?!?

Not a charachter flow, but rotten personalities rotten to the core

Again, the logic doesn't follow through. Many women marry Jews without a proper divorce because they don't know how important it is. Many reform people, for example. This is not two people deliberately breaking a bond of marriage intentionally, this is more of tinok shenishba. And again, if a married woman makes a mamzer with a married Non-Jew, there is no mamzer status at all. And they still broke marriage vows.

Motek

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 6:56 pm

Quote:

What does that mean ? Any woman's children have their status determined by the father. If the father is a Cohen, the children are cohanim, even if the mother is a bas yisroel.

correct, but if the child's father is a [gentile], the child is not a kohen, levi, or yisrael

yisrael would mean that the father is from one of the tribes other than Levi, and the father, being a [gentile], is NOT from ANY tribe in Israel

Quote:

Many women marry Jews without a proper divorce because they don't know how important it is.

right, as I posted earlier

amother

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 8:56 pm

Quote:

Many reform people, for example

well, in my opinion, reform people are those who said that the Torah is too old for them & they have to update it. They play god, so to say. They also raise their children with the same attitude towards G-d.

So if they disregard G-d's word, what can you expect besides one big mess???

How can it be blamed on halacha?

People need to take responsibility for their actions, not blame halacha for it.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 11 2005, 8:57 pm

Motek, a question to you :
what about geerim?

and, mp a question to you:

I took my 1st steps toward Judaism only after I was convinced, based on scientific evidences, that H' exists & the Torah is of Divine origin.

from then & on I drove many people nuts w/ questions, questions, questions.....

However, I knew that b/c I am human, I will never have all the answers. Nevertheless, I strove for as many as possible.

my question to you is:
do you believe that the Torah & chachamim are the mediums through which H' commands us what to do, even if it makes no sence?

there is no point in firther discussion untill we figure out how each of us approaches these issues.

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