keeping food warm shabbos day?

amother

Thu, May 04 2006, 6:26 am

I just got married and am still learning how to make shabbos. how do I keep food warm for shabbos day? we have an electric "plata." the past few shabbosim I've put everything back in the friedge shabbos night and then by day I put the dishes back on the plata, on top of empty, upside down pots, pans, etc. I know this is ok to do, but I assume it's not preferable. what's teh best way to keep things warm like chicken, rice, kugels, etc. the plata gets SOOO hot so I think everything woul dry out or burn if I keep it on overnight. btw, is there a prefereable method for lubavitch specifically?

TzenaRena

Thu, May 04 2006, 7:49 am

Quote:

Dry can also include a very small amount of gravy etc)

actually, not according to the Alter Rebbe. If there is any moisture on the food, like for example, frost on the challah from the freezer that you want to warm up, it is actual bishul..

Quote:

Also the kugel you want to warm up would be technically a davar yavesh - dry, to which the rule applies ein bishul achar bishul b'davar yavesh BUT if it has any moisture, fat, oil that will melt into liquid as it warms, it IS bishul.

This is very important to note. The rule is: yesh bishul achar bishul with a davar lach.(something moist, or liquid)

We leave the cholent on the blech overnight, and that's what we eat warm. it takes time till you figure out the right amount of water so that it doesn't dry out, and depends also on how tightly the lid fits the pot, but finally bh after years, I've developed a patent LOL

.

If your cholent seems to be drying out, you are allowed to add hot water from the kettle WHICH IS ON THE BLECH, and which you pour DIRECTLY from, into the kli rishon cholent, on the fire. One is not allowed to transfer the water into say a cup and then pour.

There is also discussion if you can use a ladle to ladle water from the kettle (only that which is on the fire) to pour,, but I don't remember the conclusion.

Get this book: The Laws of Cooking on Shabbos by Rabbi Nissan Dovid Dubov published by Sichos in English. It is based on the rulings of the Rebbeim. Much of it is based on the sefer Shabbos Kehalacha by HaRav Yekusiel Farkash, of Yerushalayim.

amother

Thu, May 04 2006, 8:00 am

let's see if I understand...

so al pi lubavitch poskim it is better not to return cold food to the blech, even on top of other pots?

or is that only with a dvar lach? (such as chicken in a little gravy) what about something dry like rice or certain kugels? can I put that back on the blech to warm?

ok, but besides cholent, what about chicken, kugel, rice, etc. is there any way, (al pi lubavithc poskim), to have these warm by day? any tips on how to keep them moist, etc. if I keep them on the blech overnight?

TzenaRena

Thu, May 04 2006, 10:01 am

In chapter 4 of The Laws of Cooking on Shabbos, it speaks about this.

Quote:

4:4
A Davar Yavesh that Melts

The rule of Ein Bishul Achar Bishul BeDavar Yavesh only applies to a dry solid that remains a solid. However if upon heating, the dry solid turns into a liquid, then it has the status of a liquid and is subject to Bishul due to the rule of Yesh Bishul Achar Bishul BeDavar Lach.

For example, one may not pour hot water from a Keli Rishon onto sugar, soup powder, infant formula, etc. Although all these are items that have already been cooked and are now a dry solid, since they dissolve when mixed with the hot water, they are to be considered as a liquid and wew apply the rule Yesh Bishul Achar Bishul.

4:5
Nolad

Certain foods contain fat that gels when the food cools. When such foods are reheated, the gel dissolves and melts. In addition to the problem of Bishul, there is also in this case the question of Nolad, ----Creating (I.e. bringing a new entity into existence).

The question of Nolad exists even if the food is reheated less than Yad Soledes Bo.

the rule of Nolad is as follows:
A fatty foodwhich when heated releases a substatial amount of liquid fat which can be seen, may not be heated on Shabbos. If however the fat is absorbed within the food (e.g.,in the case of a pie where the oil is absorbed within the pastry) or even if the food doesemit a small amount of oil, it is permitted to be heated.

therefore practically speaking:
a) If one has a piece of cold cooked chicken or meat around which has gelled some of its liquid, then it may not be reheated on Shabbos.
b) A dry kugel that may emit a small amount of oil may be reheated.
c) One may not add fat to a soup, even if it is a Keli Shlishi and even if it is not Yad Soledes since the melted fat will be noticeable in the soup
d) One may place schmaltz on rice that is not Yad Soledes Bo: since the food absorbs the fat, there is no problem of Nolad. However this would not be allowed on a more solid food like a piece of roast meat upon which the melted fat is clearly visible.
e) There are those who are stringent and do not place a cold piece of chicken (around which has gelled some of its liquid) on the same plate as hot, thick cholent, as this may pose a question of Yesh Bishul Achar Bishul

TzenaRena

Thu, May 04 2006, 10:34 am

Quote:

so al pi lubavitch poskim it is better not to return cold food to the blech, even on top of other pots?

or is that only with a dvar lach? (such as chicken in a little gravy) what about something dry like rice or certain kugels? can I put that back on the blech to warm?

It also speaks about putting things k'deirah al gabei kedeirah in this book, but much more in detail in the original sefer Shabbos Kehalacha.

It appears that you can do this with a dry food.

Also, for keeping it over night it's possible to leave things like chicken or kugel on the blech, just with enough liquid, gravy or oil to keep it from drying out, on the smallest flame.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, May 04 2006, 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total

TzenaRena

Thu, May 04 2006, 10:57 am

Quote:

a) If one has a piece of cold cooked chicken or meat around which has gelled some of its liquid, then it may not be reheated on Shabbos.
b) A dry kugel that may emit a small amount of oil may be reheated.

However, this would only be possible by putting it on top of another pot (that has something in it) or atop an inverted pot. Definitely NOT on the blech itself. The food would have to have been fully cooked.

However, to be honest I'm not that familiar with this practically, only from reading/learning it in this sefer. This concept is fairly new to me, I used to think that we can't put anything on the blech that wasn't there before. (which is of course the general rule.) I had made use of the inverted pot, but only to keep the "cheinik" or cholent from cooking out, but not to place something cold and cooked over the blech. I too always thought Lubavitchers don't do that, that the Alter Rebbe didn't hold that way.

The best thing would be to ask your Rav Very Happy

for specific questions and clarification about the kugels, especially if there is a little congealed liquid.

TzenaRena

Thu, May 04 2006, 11:11 am

ektsm wrote:

What constitutes dry food? Is a kugel dry?

Rabbi Dubov defines a wet food as being wet to the touch.

pg. 28: A food is considered Yavesh when it is totally dry. *(As long as the surface of the food is dry, even though there may be some liquid inside the food, it is condisered a Davar Yavesh. It is only considered a Lach if the surface is wet to the touch (Shabbos KeHalacha,p 142)
Even if the majority of the food is dry but there is part of the food that is wet to the touch, it is not considered a Davar Yavesh

For example, if one wished to place cold lokshen into hot soup in a Keli Rishon that has been removed from the fire, one must be sure that the lokshen is dry to the touch.

However, one may definitely either: a) place the lokshen into hot soup inside a Keli Sheni; or b) place the lokshen in a bowl and pour hot soup into the bowl using a ladle that has ladled the soup out of a Keli Rishon, even if the lokshen was wet to the touch. * However one should not pour the soup directly from the Keli Rishon onto the wet lokshen (Shabbos Kehalacha, p.146)