"Vayomer"- "He said" or "AND he sai

Gold Member Joined: Sep 19 2004 Posts: 2201

There seems to be a controversy as to whether the "vav hahipuch", which converts past to future and vice versa, is also a "vav hachibur" (and). Some translations seem to consider it as both only in the middle of a Passuk, but not in the beginning.
OTOH, Onkelos seems to consistently leave in the "vav", even though he converts the verb himself (unless I'm misunderstanding the Aramaic grammar). If so, it seems surprising that there is any controversy at all.

Any thoughts or information on this? How do YOU translate it?
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hadasa. One 'h', one 's'.

well, in school we always said and. but I don't honestly see the big deal either way. it seems that those who translate it as "and he said" consider "and" to be a legitimate word for the beginning of a biblical sentence, even if it's not connected to the previous topic. so the only question I see is, does the presence of a vav indicating the word "and" indicate a specific link to the previous topic? in which case you'd have to make a study of the whole chumash before finding an answer. if "and" is not significant as a connector, I'd see it more as biblical grammar.
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Not sure, but "yomer" is future tense, and I learned in school that the "vav" transforms the future into past - which would mean "he said"

Gold Member Joined: Sep 19 2004 Posts: 2201

My first instinct was to say, translate it without the "and", which is indeed how I did it when I taught. But now that you say that Onkelos leaves in the vav....hmmm. Tzarich iyun.

vayomer- un er hut gezugt Music

....whatever the technicality is, it just wouldn't be the same for me if you couldn't translate it like that
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One teacher told us it doesn't include the "and".

But I just checked, and Binat Hamikraot, Bnei Brak's accepted set of Ivrit-Ivrit translation booklets, leaves it in.
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Platinum Member Joined: Sep 11 2004 Posts: 14497

I think the vav is always 'and'
sometimes it is ALSO a vav hamihapech.

this may be a silly question, but:
Why couldn't it have just said 'v'umar'-and he said, instead of 'vayomer', with a vav hamihapech...?
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Gold Member Joined: Sep 19 2004 Posts: 2201

"Veamar bayom hahu hinei Elokeinu zeh kivinu lo veyoshieinu" - future.

"Vehaya beacharis hayamim nachon yihyeh har beis hashem..." - future.

"Vehaya Hashem lemelech" - future.

Gold Member Joined: Sep 19 2004 Posts: 2201

OK, I'm still looking around for answers. It seems I'm right about Onkelos, but if that's the case, how come so many reputable translations leave out the "and"? No answer to that, so far. In any case, I'm leaving it in when I teach.

I was wrong about the pronunciation of ve'amar, it seems the stress is on the last syllable whether it's past or future, and it's just the context that helps differentiate. The different pronunciations are in forms like "ve'ahavTA" (future) as opposed to "ve'aHAVta" (past).

As to the past and past perfect, the p. p. is found most often with "asher" or similar. E.g. "vayakam vayelech el hamakom asher amar lo ha'Elokim". He went to the place which Hashem had told him (earlier).
In those examples it's very clear. Check out "asher asah, asher bara" in Kiddush, obviously it's what Hashem had made, had created before Shabbos.
Without "asher" it's harder to find clear examples, but one is in our Parshah: "vaHashem berach es Avraham bakol. Vayomer Avraham el avdo etc." Hashem had blessed Avraham earlier in everything (which according to Rashi refers to his son, Yitzchak), and now Avraham spoke to his servant (about going to find a wife etc.).

disclaimer: Nothing I'm writing here is Toras Moshe miSinai, these are ideas I found on the net, without being 100 percent certain of their validity, and it seems there are different opinions even amongst reputable, Frum experts.

"vaHashem berach es Avraham bakol

Wouldn't that be "vaShem"?

Gold Member Joined: Sep 19 2004 Posts: 2201

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