Psak: Extinguish Menorah Before Leaving Homes

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 7:33 am

I told my dh about this thread. He got really upset and said it's crazy some are paskening on life or death matter. He says I have a duty to post this today:

R' Yafe Schlesinger (I can post his name bc he's a gadol and shtark charedi lol) said in like 99.9% of the situations, if there is any risk the fire might go out of control (= if putting fire around it doesn't make it stop progressing), you HAVE to put it out. Period.

The machlokes is a totally isolated house (far removed enough that even wind isn't dangerous, etc). Some rule you can put out a fire if the loss will be unbearable (you have to weigh it in your soul and heart). Some rule you can only put water around the fire, not put it out. There are opinions for both and when dh learned about this at his kollel (affiliated with rabbi above), the teacher didn't say one side or the other was right.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 9:22 am

Who is paskening anything? You're the only one giving piskei halacha!

I was just curious and said I need to speak to my rav about specific guidelines.

I believe someone who lives alone in a home that is not near anyone else's would be told something very different than someone who lives in an apartment in Crown Heights and also different than someone with 10 kids in their house...

There is a major difference between someone putting a fire out themselves and having firemen do it -- no one was saying to ignore the whole situation.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 9:24 am

I was told with much certainty some things on this thread, so I went to find the truth. I hope everyone here will do it, and not just say assur because they're not sure. Just saying. It's a bit more serious than hair covering or CY here...

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 10:11 am

I hope everyone understands that assuming one can always put out a fire on shabbos is an issur.

Please consult your rav about your specific circumstances to find out what to do if CH"V a fire starts on shabbos.

Shmerling

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 11:54 am

Quote:

I hope here everyone understands even just throwing ideas that it might be ok, or c'v praise worthy to let a fire go on, may (unwillingly) cause dozens+ of dead.

But sometimes is IS 'ok' or 'praiseworthy' to let a fire go on for a few minutes until the fire fighters get there. If 2 ppl. are sitting by a table (and there are no other ppl. in the house) and a candle falls down onto the table, and they could easily run outside and yell to a [gentile] 'fire', dont you think they would have to do that, even if the table might get burnt in those few minutes? Who's talking about ppl. dying?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:20 pm

Shmerling wrote:

Quote:

I hope here everyone understands even just throwing ideas that it might be ok, or c'v praise worthy to let a fire go on, may (unwillingly) cause dozens+ of dead.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:24 pm

Quote:

But sometimes is IS 'ok' or 'praiseworthy' to let a fire go on for a few minutes until the fire fighters get there

.

Not what my husband's rav said.
If only because you never know when the firefighters will arrive. A few minutes? it can be half an hour or more.
And who says using the phone is better than putting out a fire?

Quote:

If 2 ppl. are sitting by a table (and there are no other ppl. in the house) and a candle falls down onto the table, and they could easily run outside and yell to a [gentile] 'fire', dont you think they would have to do that, even if the table might get burnt in those few minutes?

I answered this case.

Hodu Lashem

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:27 pm

Please everyone ask you own Rav about how to conduct yourself in case of fire in your home on shabbos!

Last edited by Hodu Lashem on Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:31 pm

Hodu Lashem wrote:

Please everyone ask you own Rav about to conduct yourself in case of fire in your home on shabbos!

THAT. This "let's outmachmir the rabbanim" trend is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure all posters realize what a fire is.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:33 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Hodu Lashem wrote:

Please everyone ask you own Rav about to conduct yourself in case of fire in your home on shabbos!

THAT. This "let's outmachmir the rabbanim" trend is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure all posters realize what a fire is.

Not one person said otherwise.

(Except you -- who said you'll go with what your husband said which was not even a clear psak.)

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Wed, Dec 23 2009, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tehilla

Mon, Dec 28 2009, 11:08 am

by the way, I did want to clarify this issue with my Rav based on 1. what I was taught years ago and also 2. based on other answers in this thread.

so I asked and here was his answer regarding put out a fire on Shabbos:

1. In a life and death situation, there's no question do whatever you have to do.

2. Not every fire that (chas v'shalom any should occur) happens is life and death. Many times you can put water around it and it will go out by itself. You may not put out a fire on Shabbos for money loss. If you are able to take all your children and go outside then you cannot put it out.

So, this is the second Rav I spoke to. The first was several years ago in a seminary class. The second was today when I finally had two seconds to call. I do want to clarify with the first one--because I clearly remember him stressing the point based on where we live (so many people all together, close, etc).

GAMZu

Wed, Dec 30 2009, 4:56 pm

Munchkin- I think what you should have done in this situation is leave the candle alone. I assume the surface under the menora is metal or foil, so if the candle would have drooped, it would have been put out by its own wax dripping down on the fire. If it had fallen, it would continue burning on the fire proof surface until it goes out.
There is no inyan of getting it to stand straight. Nothing would have happened if it fell, but if you were scared, picking it up and putting it in the sink causes less chilul shabbos than to keep moving it and manipulating it.

I know it's hard to think in such a situation, and I have put out fires on shabbos without stopping to think if it's really necessary (one time a candle fell out of my hands when I was lighting in the sukkah on YT. It rolled under the sukka wall and got wedged between the ground and the wall above it. I couldn't reach it easily because it was in a corner under the table, so I sat on a chair and kicked it over and over until I was able to step on the flame. In retrospect, I did have enough time to crawl under the table and lift the candle out, but I was panicking and it all happened in a 5 second time span.)