Giving in to a defiant child

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 5:57 pm

marina wrote:

Comparing a 5 year old and a 13 year old is difficult. You can try to use Explosive Child with the 5 year old, OP, but it is often of limited effectiveness with that age. Conversational exchanges are less effective than calm consistent consequences. Maybe your child is the exception, but I'm guessing if talking worked, you would have known by now.

When you write "asserting my authority is what gets me into fights with her in the first place. if I would be more caring and giving in to her, we wouldnt have fights," that is pretty much what I mean when I say that you are doing it wrong. Starting out with the attitude that by giving in to a child you will achieve peace and harmony is virtually a recipe for disaster.

Fox had a very good post on asserting authority in the classroom that is relevant to my point here. When you assert your authority, you cannot doubt yourself or lose control or react in any way other than complete calmness and casualness. "Oh, well, you have to stay in your room for the third day in a row, we'll miss you. Hugs."

Tikvah, I rarely write about my kids so it always amuses me when people assume what I have and don't have. Thanks for amusing me today.

My mistake. I apologize. And Hug

to you for having to deal with this as well.

momof2sofar

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 6:50 pm

I know this was not OPs question but I was wondering if anyone has suggestions of how to help others deal with my challenging child? I posted some information in this thread about ds and am hoping for some suggestion. (Hope it's ok with you OP but I don't want to start my own thread).

It is very frustrating that I am the only one who can deal with my ds. My dh and my wonderful parents can't, and it would be nice if I could get some help every once in a while. How can I help them to understand him? Noone else is effective with him. He only listens to me. (If he's gonna listen at all).

Last edited by momof2sofar on Wed, Feb 23 2011, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Kayza

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 6:51 pm

amother wrote:

I know that her trigger is not getting what she wants, but am I supposed to make sure to always give her what she wants so the situation should not escalate?

That is the absolutely worst thing you can do for her. She NEEDS to learn to cope with things not going her way.

A good starting point is Setting Limits With Your Strong Willed Child by Robert MacKenzie http://www.amazon.com/Setting-.....21364

Besides the issue that she MUST learn to deal with not getting her way, the idea that you are going to always make sure that she gets her way is fantastically impossible and unfair to the rest of the family. You are not going to make any changes in a short amount of time. Over time, if you are consistent, reasonable and firm she'll probably get the message eventually.

One thing to look at though - get her evaluated for learning, vision and auditory issues. Also, if you think she really does have ADD or ADHD, get that checked out; if that turns out to be the case, there may be some help to be had on that front, as well.

Last but not least make sure her physical health is in order - sufficient sleep, hydration, the right food and no low level other issue (like if she spends as much time out of school as in because of infections, you want to check that out.)

granolamom

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 6:55 pm

tikva18 wrote:

marina wrote:

Explosive child is good. It basically teaches you to problem solve with your child. It gives vocabulary tools and ideas for how to get the conversation going the way you want it to go.

But it seems like OP has a different problem, one where she does not know how to give an effective punishment.

I would do the explosive child talking sessions after learning how to assert your authority, esp with a 5 year old. This would be reversed for a teen where asserting authority and giving out consequences will be often counterproductive.

If you don't have a defiant/explosive child - then you may not understand the situation. Trust me when I say it is not lack of meting out effective punishment. What works for a regular child does NOT work for a defiant/explosive one - believe me. Disastrous results can occur. Sad

worth repeating

Kayza

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 6:58 pm

amother wrote:

I think where I went wrong this morning, was yet again, not having the patience to let her do something very important to her. I thought it was not only unimportant but wasting everyone's time since we'd be late to school b/c of it, and in return I got a half hour tantrum, and everyone half an hour later to school, than we would have been. not to mention the embarrassment of having a very public tantrum on the school front steps. (not that I behaved differntly to her b/c of the embarrassment, but I was still embarrassed) I never did give in, but in her mind she decided I was going to give her a double prize when we got home, so it was ok to finally go to school.

I hope you didn't give her the prize. Also, you were not wrong - if what she wanted to do was going to make everyone late, then it was the right thing to do - she needs to understand that even if it is important to her she can't make others suffer for her issues. The fact that she then had a tantrum does NOT justify letting her do something that will make the others late, and if you let her do it next time because of this tantrum, you've just added to her behavior, because she is learning that in the long term, tantrums work for her.

I would seriously have considered either picking her up and taking her, tantrum and all, and at the school, sending the other children in.

The Explosive Child sounds like it could help you start getting these concepts through to her.

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:02 pm

Kayza wrote:

amother wrote:

Did you read the Explosive Child? it's for the parents, not the children. It's to give the parents better coping mechanisms - which in turn helps the child. It's not a matter of "getting these concepts through to her".

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:04 pm

Kayza wrote:

amother wrote:

I know that her trigger is not getting what she wants, but am I supposed to make sure to always give her what she wants so the situation should not escalate?

You raise some excellent points regarding learning, vision, etc - along with other testing - all good plans to have on board. I'd further add to the good health - look into how she reacts after eating certain foods or being in certain environments. It's definitely a possiblity that there are triggers that are contributing to her being set off.

granolamom

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:04 pm

Fox wrote:

marina wrote:

If you think that your child can be rational enough to discuss the situation and come up with a compromise that you both can live with, and then follow through and remember that conversation in the heat of the moment, go for it. The vast majority of 5 year olds are not up to that at all.

Oh, I agree that my example was that of a highly verbal child who is able to discuss abstract concepts. The good news is that many defiant or "authority-challenged" kids actually are more verbal than their age might suggest. The bad news is that you are correct that they often have mouths on them that make you seriously wonder if the hospital or midwife will accept returns.

My approach would probably be to keep coming back to the fact that we have to find a solution rather than placing blame. The biggest difference in parenting a defiant child, IMHO, is that the whole punishment-reward cycle doesn't work too well. I can assure you that my DD would rather be confined to her room until she's 30 than give in. I once had the LCSW at her school tell me that she had literally never met a more stubborn child. So, yeah, it's always three steps forward and two steps back!

agree. its about coming to a compromise, leaving the misbehavior ignored. its not useful. your goal is to help your child learn to express herself and work with others towards a solution. my dd is impervious to traditional punishment-reward discipline. no punishment is too great, no reward tempting enough to bring her brain around from tantrum to compromise. she's got to feel like you are on her side or she digs in more and more.

amother

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 5:42 am

dont want to throw another label at you, but the part about making up in her mind that you will give her something so now it is ok to stop the tantrum and go to school sounds like OCD. basically there are "reasons" why someone with OCD NEEEEEDS something done a certain way, and when its not done according to the way they need it causes them to freak out. then the only way to get past it is if they create a new "rule" that it is ok to do x if they do y. so if in her mind she convinces herself that now it is ok bec u will give her something its like she is now allowing her first "rule" that was broken (wanting to do something at home in the example u gave) to be overrided by her new "rule"(that it's ok to not finish so long as you will be giving her 2 treats) also this could explain why she would have tantrums for things. there might be reasons why to her she "CAN'T" listen to what you watn her to do, when someone has OCD they will have a fear on not doing/doing whatever is against what the OCD is telling them to do. (OCD is not just about handwashing and being neat!) I could be waaaay off here but just something to look out for.

gryp

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:12 am

My 4 yr old is like this. I don't give in to him but we're at the point that he can think up compromises or agree on mine. He is blessed with great creativity, and his ideas are often better. I always say he's smarter than me.

After two years of trying "traditional parenting," I know now not to even think that way anymore with him. Any ounce of negativity breeds more negativity. Not a single punishment ever worked with him, it just made him act up more.

I know that when he does something not right, it's because he's feeling bad about something. If I pick him up and hold him for a little, he usually gets back on track. I can change also try and change his mood with a joke or silly word.

And I know that if I order him to do something, I might as well just ask him to throw a tantrum. I'd rather not spend several hours that way. Next year he'll be out of preschool and I'm trying not to worry. He is very individual, likes to set his own schedules and has his own ideas about what to play with when. When he started preschool I didn't think he'd participate in circle time, or any of the prepared schedule, but he surprised me and his teachers say he does very well. I hope he continues to surprise me throughout elementary. Sometimes I keep him home from school just to give him a chance to create his own schedule for the day, because that's who he really is and I don't want him to lose his uniqueness.

I don't know if he's gifted but I know he's a very special child, and not typical. I never say anything to the teachers about his being different, I wait to see if they notice, and so far they have. I'm glad because I need them to recognize it in him in order for him to have a fulfilling year.

momof2sofar

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:22 am

grip wrote:

This is exactly my ds!!
This was his first year that the teacher does not like his uniqueness. And he knows it! It's been a rough year but we are trying to make the best of it. I've given him a couple of stay home and play hookey days when I feel like he is going to absolutely loose it. B"H for Shabbos and Sunday (no school for him Sunday yet).

momof2sofar

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 7:06 am

my ds is 5 (almost 6). I find that being one step ahead helps. Like calmly talking before things escalate. I also can read when he's upset or has a hard day and try to be very affectionate and attentive. It's a lot of work. He's a lot more work than my perfect dd but he is also my sunshine. He plays beautifully on his own but I always make sure to have TONS of new books to read. That way, when when I see him loosing it I just start reading outloud (to myself, without him there) he ALWAYS comes to listen and he can listen for hours. I need to keep him stimulated. We have lots of science books because he loves science.
This year with his teacher "not getting him" has been really tough. When he comes home I try to be very affectionate and listen to him talk and be attentive for him. There have been times though that he comes home and cries for hours. It is so frustrating and sad.

I'm not sure if this also will work for your son, but my son loves alone time. There are times when he stays in his room for a long time by himself and cools off and recharges. He knows he needs it. If things get out of hand and he looses it I give him alone time in his room (same thing as a time out but we call it "cool off time") he comes out when he's ready to talk nicely about whatever it is that's upsetting him. Sometimes it takes 45 minutes.
That's all I could think of for now

amother

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 7:33 am

Wow so much to respond to!

Quote:

Besides the issue that she MUST learn to deal with not getting her way, the idea that you are going to always make sure that she gets her way is fantastically impossible and unfair to the rest of the family.

she is open to compromise as long as she feels her wishes are being respected and considered. Its when I simply state nope cant do it, that we go through this.

Quote:

You are not going to make any changes in a short amount of time. Over time, if you are consistent, reasonable and firm she'll probably get the message eventually.

eventually never seems to come. I thought this way for 2 years. until I finally gave it up. Those 2 years of misery were such a mistake, that I regret it deeply. the very first time I tried a new way, I saw better results. I didnt need to wait years for it. it was such a mistake that I beg other mothers of kids like mine, not to go this route.

amother who mentioned OCD, what you wrote is very interesting, since when I was still in the midst of my 2 years of miserable power struggles this thought crossed my mind many many times. she simply had to have things a certain way, and if I messed up the order she would have to start over again. the interesting part is that once I started being gentler with her and letting her do things her way, the OCD like behaviours were not an issue any more.
I suspect that the OCDness only came out when she was feeling threatened, and not in control of her surroundings. In fact that is exactly what it is, since she said the phrases you mentioned sounded OCD-like, when I was imposing my will over hers.

I had a conversation with her this morning.

Me: I was talking to another mother who has a dd like you, and she told me that she made a deal with her dd so they shouldn't get into fights anymore. Do you know what the deal was?
DD: what?
me: they made a deal that the mother would never say no to something unless she thought about it first carefully. and she would try to let her dd do things as much as she wanted but when the the mother thought about it and decided no, the girl had to listen without a fight.
would you like a deal like this too?
DD: (big smile, and a hug) I love you mommy.
me: I love you too. I dont like getting into fights with you. Will you make sure to listen when I need to say no?
DD: Yes.

Earlier she had asked for specific juice box that is in a hard to reach place. My first instinct was to say no, why should I have to get it for you? but I stopped and said ok. I'll get it, and it turned out to be easier to reach than I thought it would be. she was happy, I was happy. we had a nice morning. Very Happy

amother

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 7:39 am

I also want to add that she is a fantastic problem solver.
I will tell her we cant do what you want to because of X,Y and Z reasons, which are seemingly impossible to change.
and she will come up with a solution that takes into consideration X,Y and Z and still meets her wishes!
I cant possibly refuse her wishes when all conditions have been met!
and I think this is why she argues back with me, she knows (and she's right!) that if I would share with her all my considerations and conditions she can find a way to work around it, and come up with something workable. She surprises me with her creativity and problem solving skills.

amother

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 8:56 am

how is your daughter socially? the OCDness you describe sounds like she is rigid more from that standpoint than from OCD maybe. there is a lot of crossover between different diagnosis. I'm not sure if you are looking for a diagnosis or if you have ever brought her to a psychologist. But if your daughter has issues socially with interacting with other kids and with taking other kdis feelings into consideration. How is her behavior in school as far as following instructions during class and during unstructured times?

Merrymom

Sat, Feb 26 2011, 8:25 pm

I just wanted to make one little comment here. A parent still has to be willing to be the "bad guy" sometimes. As an example I told my daughter repeatedly that she has to stop playing video games until she does her homework. After being ignored for the tenth time I walked over and took the remote out of her hand. She screamed at me " I HATE YOU, I'M NOT DOING MY HOMEWORK NOW!". I just kind of gave a little laugh and ignored her as she stormed off. I didn't even try to talk to her for about a half hour. After that time I told her that her teacher will be upset with her if she doesn't do her homework but frankly it wouldn't have mattered to me. Let her teachers fight with her, I just believe in consequences, not in fighting. Had she not done her homework she wouldn't have been able to play video games at all the next day. I let the kids make their own decisions about whether it's worth it to them to misbehave or not.