Please tell me the differences between Beit shemesh and RBS!

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 3:47 am

shalhevet wrote:

slushiemom wrote:

amother wrote:

slushiemom wrote:

before I answer the op, lemme just say that the bold is really obnoxious, probably L"H and DEFINITELY not true. I actually don't know anyone who this would apply to. Also, you don't even live here, why are you anon?

First you insult me, then you want to know why I'm anonymous?

I'm trying to help the OP. I think what I'm saying is true, and I think it's relevant. I've heard similar feelings from people who, like me, lived in Beit Shemesh as young adults. Obviously not everyone feels that way, because some people choose to stay.

You say you don't know anyone it would apply to. Are you and your friends similar to what OP says she wants for her kids? Because if you're more typical MO, of course you wouldn't experience the same type of stereotyping.

I did not call you obnoxious, I called what you said obnoxious (which it was, as you have no firsthand info if that is correct- which it's not). I'm more typical MO, probably a bit to the left of OP, my chevra is all MO and pretty varied- I'm very close with about 6 young couples and there's over 20 in my wider chevra. NO ONE touches or hugs other people's husbands. I'm not saying the neighborhood is right for OP (I'm not saying it's not either, I'm in touch with her privately to give more relevant details and let her decide).

Again, your original post was to give info about the community based on what you heard- that does not in any way compromise your identity, there's no reason you should have been anon.

I don't live in BS, and I've been there about twice, I think. I just think it's important to note that you, yourself, slushiemom, posted several letters/ emails from rabbis(?) and/or communal leaders from the BS DL/ MO community which were extremely inciteful, calling on the MO there to demonstrate (? I don't remember all the details) against other frum Jews in BS.

I have NEVER seen such hate from MO people against chareidim as seems to be found among at least some of the MO residents of BS, anywhere else in Israel. I think there may be politics and/or struggles for land there (read: money) as a cause, but I would be wary of living there if you want to straddle the two worlds.

But Shalhevet, the other side were acting terrible as well, dont you think? The charedim that were acting terrible to those poor little girls walking to school? There is no such thing as a one sided fight/argument.

shalhevet

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 3:58 am

Quote:

It was awful, it was a chillul Hashem, believe me e/o here just wants to live in peace, as evidenced by the fact that since the media blowup got the violent ones to back down, there has been ZERO trouble proving it was one-sided instigation, with us defending ourselves.

Actually it sounds more like the media caused it, and once they lost interest it died a natural death.

However, this still doesn't explain how rabbis and/or community leaders were sending out inciteful letters. In my book, there is a big difference between a few crazies from a community doing something very wrong and people in positions of influence sending out emails against a different group of frum Jews (and you posting such letters on imamother to encourage people to come and demonstrate).

It doesn't sound too off base to imagine that MO youth in BS would now be careful not to behave in a way that could be interpreted as chareidi, considering the militant position of some adults (of influence) against chareidim. I didn't say either the chareidi or MO communities in BS aren't full of nice people. I said that someone who sounds like she wants to straddle the two communities will probably be better off somewhere like Petach Tikva or Haifa or Rechovot or lots of other places with a history of different communities respecting each other.

ETA: Shabbat, I answered your point in this cross-post. On the chareidi side were some nut jobs acting disgustingly. The MO side included organized, inciteful emails tarring an entire community written by rabbis (IIRC). That is very different.

etky

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 4:26 am

I think it's important to keep in mind the larger picture - the context in which all these events happened.
At the time, there was a rash of incidents in several places throughout the country where Haredim harassed secular or DL women on buses or on the street. There was also a public furor regarding Haredi censure of female representation in all forms of media. Beit Shemesh however, was the flash point of this phenomenon, where it all came to a head. The concern on the part of secular as well as DL people was that Haredim were unreasonably foisting their values and way of life on people who not only did not subscribe to this value system but for whom it was anathema (for Anglos especially). Due to the proximity of the neighborhoods in Beit Shemesh there naturally was a lot of friction. My impression is that the DL in Ramat Beit Shemesh felt threatened amidst the much larger Haredi community that would impose their standards on all residents if given the option. Hence their militant response. They were fighting against a violation of what they regarded as the status quo.

shalhevet

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 4:53 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Shalhevet,

Baruch Hashem for rabbonim who are willing to stand up to grown men harrassing little girls!

saw, slushiemom posted the emails (otherwise I would never had seen them). I have no objection to them condemning the incidents that occurred. If you read my posts I was noting here that public figures in the BS MO community were inciting against the entire chareidi community, including those with no connection to even the community these villains came from. IIRC (and I might not) they were calling for demonstrations against building any more apartments aimed (as they saw it, according to apartment specifications) at the chareidi population, and vilifying anyone in a black hat.

DrMom - I don't think the media made up the original story. I think the media chose to feature the story, rather than, say, secular youth who passed other secular youth in Tel Aviv that day and spat on them, or another 101 stories. By featuring the original story they encouraged more nutcases and sane people seeking political publicity to keep everything going.

slushiemom

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 5:05 am

shalhevet wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Shalhevet,

Baruch Hashem for rabbonim who are willing to stand up to grown men harrassing little girls!

saw, slushiemom posted the emails in the LII section (otherwise I would never had seen them). I have no objection to them condemning the incidents that occurred. If you read my posts I was noting here that public figures in the BS MO community were inciting against the entire chareidi community, including those with no connection to even the community these villains came from. IIRC (and I might not) they were calling for demonstrations against building any more apartments aimed (as they saw it, according to apartment specifications) at the chareidi population, and vilifying anyone in a black hat.

DrMom - I don't think the media made up the original story. I think the media chose to feature the story, rather than, say, secular youth who passed other secular youth in Tel Aviv that day and spat on them, or another 101 stories. By featuring the original story they encouraged more nutcases and sane people seeking political publicity to keep everything going.

grrr.... I really really wasn't going to respond to shalhevet anymore because we've been in circles on this on multiple threads, but I must clarify two things:

1- "vilifying anyone in a black hat"- the LEADER of the demonstration wears a black hat- so that's completely inaccurate. In addition, the demonstration (and I'm SURE I've written this before) was for EQUAL amounts of new housing opportunities. Nowhere did anyone ever say that they don't want any new chareidim moving into the city. The rhetoric was "1/3, 1/3, 1/3". That we wanted equal amounts of housing opportunities for Chilonim, DL, and chareidim- ALL of whom are experiencing a housing shortage. soooo that debunks your theory of our rabbis calling for demonstrations "against chareidim". Simply never happened.

2- You're incorrect that the media chose to feature this story. WE did. As in, members of our community. (not me personally, obviously). The terror was going on for 4 months and nothing that us, nice, law abiding, american neighbors was doing was having any effect. We tried every legal method possible to get them to back off and here were the responses:

going to the police- police don't want to rock the boat, you arrest one you have hundreds rioting- it wasn't "worth it" for them. I personally saw someone bring a picture to thepolice of a guy spitting on someone and the police said "how should I know who that is, they all look alike?".
shaming them- ppl dropped fliers in their neighborhood (and this is a bit extreme and not everyone agreed with it, but remember- we were dealing with serious harassment of our community)- the fliers had the picture of the ringleader on it and said "moshe friedman loves little girls- how do we know? every day when the girls school gets out he goes there to see the girls walk home" - perfectly legal and we hoped that would get them to back down- nothin doing.

the community would send extra adults at dismissal and brought their pet dogs with them, knowing the violent population over there generally don't like dogs- WE got told by the police not to bring dogs!! It's perfectly legal to bring out dogs on leashes, this was another case of the police not wanting to rock the boat. classic blame the victim.

ANYWAY- in the end, ppl from the community brought the story to the media. Why? because it SHUT THEM UP! it worked! We're a year plus past the media blowup and it's been silent. Worth it, to have our kids sleep at night, NOT have them hate chareidim because they're not seeing those violent chareidim (obv only the hundred or so who came out, but dressed like the thousands who live here) behave like animals anymore, and the women can comfortably walk around dressed however we want, without fear of harassment.

so kol hakavod to those who went to the media, and kol hakavod to the media- because that's what STOPPED the chillul Hashem.

slushiemom

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 5:12 am

and now I'm done. because there's no point in rehashing this, it's only bringing up old negative feelings that aren't relevant anymore.

OP, there are a hundred reasons to move here. I LOVE my community. I love my friends. I love my shul. I love the fact that sheinfeld is a quiet, suburban neighborhood with beautiful houses, but with the amenities of a city (shops, drs, grocery, etc- as opposed to a small yishuv which generally don't have that nearby). We have nice parks. We're a warm and welcoming community. The schools are great. We have great ganim, both private and public.

The hareidi tension issue, which SO doesn't affect our day to day lives, and isn't even discussed among ourselves as it's not relevant anymore, is one con. There are pros and cons everywhere, you just need to figure out what works for you.

kalsee

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 5:20 am

slushiemom wrote:

You are part of a DL community. The OP considers herself "chardal" and that's why I think there is no community here where she will fit in comfortably.

slushiemom

Mon, Jan 14 2013, 5:22 am

kalsee wrote:

slushiemom wrote:

You are part of a DL community. The OP considers herself "chardal" and that's why I think there is no community here where she will fit in comfortably.

True. Ramat Shiloh may be a better fit for those reasons. I'm not pushing her to move here, I just want her to know my community isn't full of villans Smile

goldapoe

Tue, Jan 15 2013, 4:09 pm

Hi OP, full disclosure, I'm slushimom's mom Smile

and needless to say I am thrilled that she chose to move back to Sheinfeld. I am clearly one of the older moms on the block but I do have an 11 year old daughter and 5 year old son. My daughter is in her last year at rappaport and we have been so happy with the education she received there! She did take the bus, 180 NIS round trip per month and there are dozens of girls on the bus. There is a separate boys bus for their school. There are a number of options for youth groups I think only one is separate (?ezra) and there are many, many families that do not encourage or approve of mixed gender hanging out and it is not an issue for our children.

What do you think chardal is? In Sheinfeld, Want to see black hats on the men and boys? You will. Wanna see shaitels on the women? You will. Wanna see long tsanua skirts with long/minimally 3/4 length sleeves to match? You will. But you will also see men with all size kippot srugot and women in all types of hair covering and clothing. The beauty of Sheinfeld is the co-existance that exists here. And respect for all Jews. And yes, I mean all Jews.

I would be very happy to answer any questions you have (PM me). Now that you have identified some actual Sheinfeld residents you might want to take the discussion away from here so you have facts instead of supposition. It would be helpful to know the ages of your children, too, so we can really help you.

B'hatzlacha!