Orthodox Girls Wearing Tefillin

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:08 pm

EmesOrNT wrote:

The difference is that tefillin is specifically for men....

Circular logic fallacy.
That's the very issue being debated here! You can't assume it to be true to be used to advance another point.

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:11 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Actually, I would say yes. If I want to say Tehillim, I am welcome to do so. But if I want to say Tehillim when I have an obligation to light the Shabbos Candles, or when I have an obligation to go to the Mikva, I should put off my Tehillim for later.

And why can't one apply this very understanding approach towards women putting on tefillin too?

And please don't tell me about other objections! This is specifically regarding the objection of "a woman should first be putting meaning into the Mitzvos that she IS obligated in..."

out-of-towner

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:15 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Way to go and distort everything about this whole issue.

No one is saying they know anything better than God. They are saying that there are a variety of acceptable interpretations for how to live according to God's dictates.

Did you ever hear of the concept of the Degalim? Each Shevet had a distinctly different flag, which corresponded to their mission in this world. If my husband wants to do Avoda in the Bais Hamikdash, why can't he? He's an upstanding Jew! It's not his place, it's not his mission. Oh but it makes you so close to G-d to do the Avoda! Very nice, but it won't make him close to G-d if it's not his place to do it!

We women have our own mission in life. We are naturally blessed with the ability to connect with Hashem in a much more direct way. We don't need Tefillin, or to lead the services, or even to pray with a Minyan for us to connect with Hashem. We have our own place in the world. Tefillin might not be forbidden according to every Rabbi, but the fact that most Rabbis strongly discourage it should say something.

And don't we have a Torah obligation to listen to our Rabbis?

out-of-towner

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:17 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Yes, a woman IS obligated in Hadlakas Neiros and Mikva!

You have ignored the point of my post!

Barbara

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:18 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

And the rabbi of these women (Rabbi Hacsztark, the principal of SAR High School) has expressly stated that it is OK.

Don't you have a Torah obligation to listen to him?

Or does that only apply to "your" rabbis. These girls' rabbis should be ignored and insulted.

out-of-towner

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:23 pm

Barbara wrote:

No actually, I'm talking about the Rabbis in the Gemara, nothing to do with modern day Rabbis!

(FTR: I know Rabbi Riskin, a MO Rabbi semi-personally and I respect him tremendously, even though I don't agree with him.)

But I'm just a young, narrow minded Chareidi girl, what does my opinion matter?

out-of-towner

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:28 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Thank you for the seminary musar lesson.

Actually, I learned that in high school.

And that comment was uncalled for. If you want to post your opinion on why women should be allowed to wear Tefillin, it is perfectly in my rights to tell you why I think it is Assur. Is it not?

But then again, I'm just a young, narrow-minded Chariedi girl, what do I know?

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:30 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Yes, a woman IS obligated in Hadlakas Neiros and Mikva!

You have ignored the point of my post!

Did I? Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your point. But I think actually that you ignored the point of my post.

I pointed out an inconsistency in one of the objections. If one argues that "women should focus on things they are obligated in and not in things they aren't" and so they shouldn't be donning tefilin since they aren't obligated in that, then one should similarly object to the encouragement of women doing anything they aren't obligated in, such as saying tehillim.

Your response was two-fold: First, you focused on a very narrow situation, one where doing Action A is in direct conflict with Action B. Now firstly, we aren't even talking about that narrow situation, and secondly, I don't see how using that situation really would negate my point of the inconsistency at all.

Your second response was to point out an entirely different issue distinguishing tehillm from tefillin. But this doesn't address the inconsistency of the argument, it just sidesteps it.

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:32 pm

I doubt Rashi's daughters did it in public.

If they did, I also doubt they were just average shomer mitsvot teenagers.

I doubt all women then did.

Even if they did, yeridas hadoros and yes, the feminist agenda, changed the data quite a bit. In the 11th century you couldn't question the motivation for doing it as a woman...

Yet again, if these girls have an Orthodox psak to do it public, let them do it in public.
If someone has a mesora as a family or kehila to do it also, gezintheit.

And again, let not assume "all MO" wear tefilin, or tallit, or even learn Gemara (girls!).

A man needs a certain list of things to connect best to Hashem. We don't, or we would be mandated to. If we don't why want to do it except yetzer hara or agenda or just not understanding it's not a priviledge?
It's what my lite MO, pants wearing, no haircovering, high carreer, Phd and double master holding mother also wonders. Not only a half ignorant 19 yr old barefoot in the kitch.

(and another thread that won't solve anything Wink

)

Barbara

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:36 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Wow. You know a MO rabbi, "semi-personally." How parochial of you.

Should my opinions get more respect because I was once quite close with two rabbis who were, at the time, very prominent in the Lubavitcher movement? Both lovely people, for the record.

If anyone would dare come onto this group and insult your rabbis the way that you feel free to insult these girls' rabbis, they would be banned for life. But I guess that "narrow minded Charedi girls" are allowed to make halachic pronouncements that rabbis are wrong, that their decisions violate halacha, and that anyone who follows them clearly cares little about halacha. Who knew.

BlueRose52

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 2:37 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

You're right. I admit, it was snarky. I shouldn't have said that. My apologies.

But it was motivated by my annoyance that it seemed like you were just asserting a hashkafic perspective, which seems entirely superfluous.

Everyone here understands that from the chareidi hashkafic perspective and according to chareidi rabbonim this isn't acceptable. But those advocating for it can point out other hashkafic perspectives that do allow it. There just doesn't seem to be a very constructive point to saying that. I mean, why not just say, "We have to listen daas torah! And daas torah doesn't allow it! End of discussion!"

Obviously, we're not approaching the issue from that vantage point.