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-> Judaism
-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Zehava
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:32 am
This is something I've been wondering about. Transgender is becoming pretty accepted in the secular world. What if you bump into one at work or such. How is one to relate to a transgender male? Can we shake their hand? Is there a yichud issue? What about a transgender femal who looks like a woman? What is the Halacha?
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monseychick
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:47 am
www.torahmusings.com has some excellent articles on this
I think Rabbi Ruvan Bulka wrote a book about it
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mandr
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:55 am
Well, if you don't know the person, you wouldn't know if it was transgender or not, right? Just because someone changes their body, doesn't make them that gender so if a guy has SRS I would still treat him like a man, not a woman. Think of it as a full-body, permanent mask. That's my opinion.
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CatLady
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 12:02 pm
What an interesting question! I'd add a few questions of my own - does it matter if they are still transitioning or if they have completed the process?
The PC/kumbaya part of me would treat trans people in the same way I'd treat any other person - if you're a male, there are different interpretations of if/when/under which circumstances to shake a man's hand, but if you're a presenting yourself to the world as female, I would just do it. I don't go around asking people about their surgical histories in general because I don't want to be TMI'ed about the details, whether it's gallbladder or gender reassignment. So I'd be taking people at their word as to what gender they are.
Maybe someone has seen rabbinic position papers on this, and I would be fascinated to read them.
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bigsis144
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 12:17 pm
mandr wrote: | Well, if you don't know the person, you wouldn't know if it was transgender or not, right? Just because someone changes their body, doesn't make them that gender so if a guy has SRS I would still treat him like a man, not a woman. Think of it as a full-body, permanent mask. That's my opinion. |
S-x: what you are on the outside (genitalia, etc.)
Gender: what you are on the inside (how you identify yourself)
S-xuality: who you are attracted to
It's completely realistic, when meeting a stranger, not to know the answers to ANY of the above.
So for a stranger, I'd probably judge based upon what they present to the world. (I'm not gonna start being choshed that every woman I might have to shake hands with with is actually a man.)
If it was someone for whom I knew their history, I certainly think the respectful human thing to do would be to treat them as they wish to be treated (I.e. if I knew that the woman had previously been a man, I wouldn't refuse to shake her hand, and I would use female pronouns, etc.).
But I'm interested in reading the links posted for the halachic view.
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goodmorning
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 12:43 pm
The Tzitz Eliezer paskened that an individual who undergoes SRS actually undergoes a change of halachic s-xual identity.
Many other poskim disagree, citing, among other sources, a Rabbeinu Chananel which says that relations with a man who has artificial female genitalia (apparently it's that old!) constitutes "mishkav zachar."
So basically you can be machmir for both shittos (or meikil and you have someone to rely on ). Or just ask your LOR.
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Heyaaa
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 12:48 pm
Personally if I knew someone had previously been a different gender I would view them as that original gender.
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sequoia
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 12:54 pm
Heyaaa wrote: | Personally if I knew someone had previously been a different gender I would view them as that original gender. |
That would be very hurtful to them. I hope you will reconsider once you realize that.
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mandr
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:00 pm
sequoia wrote: | That would be very hurtful to them. I hope you will reconsider once you realize that. |
I agree with Heyaaa.
Personally, I think it would be disrespectful to G-d who chose a gender for each person to view them as their man-made gender.
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PAMOM
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:07 pm
But if you understand the biology and psychology of transgender situations ,you'd know that it's much more complicated than "that's how Gd made them." It's not a choice --a transgendered person feels like he or she was created as the opposite gender-- that the exterior doesn't match the interior .
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smilingmom
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:13 pm
sequoia wrote: | That would be very hurtful to them. I hope you will reconsider once you realize that. |
Yeah, but that's life. I worked with a female to male transgender. Besides forgetting to call 'him' by his new name, there were a lot of complications. The males did not want him in their locker room, but the females did not mind. She however wanted to use the male locker room not the female one. She ended up with her own private locker room.
As new employees started working with her, she eventually became 'one of the guys' and now that's it's twenty years later, she has no problems related to co workers though she still has a private locker room.
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Barbara
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:13 pm
mandr wrote: | I agree with Heyaaa.
Personally, I think it would be disrespectful to G-d who chose a gender for each person to view them as their man-made gender. |
And you know that Hashem did not create these people -- His children -- purposefully as transgendered, for reasons we don't understand, is .....
I'm willing to take the chance that Hashem will think I'm being disrespectful to Him when I treat another person with kindness and dignity. It should be the worst of my sins.
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Mama Bear
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:41 pm
a friend of mine actually had this problem when she was going to electrolysis school. While she was never given male clients to work on, she discovered that one client was MTF. She asked a shayla and was paskened that she is not obligated to ask, of course, but if she knows for a fact that someone is Male-toFemale, she's not permitted to touch them.
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debsey
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:45 pm
I go to a secular all women gym. I HOPE this never comes up, because then where will I go to the gym????? I'm not kidding - this is something that worries me.
debsey
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dimyona
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 1:50 pm
mandr wrote: | I agree with Heyaaa.
Personally, I think it would be disrespectful to G-d who chose a gender for each person to view them as their man-made gender. |
G-d also created the gender dysphoria that led them to make a decision about their bodies.
I'm hardly an advocate for SRS; I personally have a very hard time understanding any elective extremely invasive surgery and can't wrap my head around this entire issue. But the best way of respecting G-d is respecting his creations and the choices they make whether we agree with them or not.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 2:24 pm
debsey wrote: | I go to a secular all women gym. I HOPE this never comes up, because then where will I go to the gym????? I'm not kidding - this is something that worries me.
debsey |
We can open a can of worms about people transitioning, or deciding on a new identity without surgical changing. But my gut reaction was that it would a) be hurtful, b) in a professional setting because of a) risky to do otherwise rather than how the person identifies him/herself. If I knew I would be in this situation I would ask a shaila and if I didn't have the opportunity, do what I would do with the kavana that I'm acting halachically.
ETA: re acting halachically. Yes, I believe in treating every tzelem Elokim with dignity, but my primary kavana would be that I am acting halachically. If I wouldn't shake hands, I would be as gracious in my refusal as possible.
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Zehava
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 3:44 pm
I was not asking for a theological debate. Just from a put Halachic perspective. When someone is in the process of transitioning it's pretty obvious.
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Heyaaa
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 4:32 pm
sequoia wrote: | That would be very hurtful to them. I hope you will reconsider once you realize that. |
I wouldn't act towards them as if they were that original gender but in my mind they will be the other gender.
A pattern I've seen nowadays that the only ones who have to be sensitive are the conservatives and the religious. The sensitivity should go both ways and somehow it doesn't.
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sequoia
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 4:40 pm
Heyaaa wrote: | I wouldn't act towards them as if they were that original gender but in my mind they will be the other gender.
A pattern I've seen nowadays that the only ones who have to be sensitive are the conservatives and the religious. The sensitivity should go both ways and somehow it doesn't. |
What you write is not logical. Everyone has to be sensitive, not just the conservatives and the religious. It goes both ways. How are transgender people being insensitive to YOU? By their existence? Where is the analogy?
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ora_43
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Thu, Aug 07 2014, 4:44 pm
sequoia wrote: | What you write is not logical. Everyone has to be sensitive, not just the conservatives and the religious. It goes both ways. How are transgender people being insensitive to YOU? By their existence? Where is the analogy? |
I assumed it was that liberal people are being insensitive by accusing people who don't think the "right" way about s-x and gender of insensitivity.
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