Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

bandcm

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 7:03 am

amother wrote:

So interesting to see I'm considered Gezhe! What is the defenition of Gezhe?

""marina wrote:
Maybe they were gezhe , never thought of that as an explanation. Levy, Ives, Schtrocks etc

Knowing members of all of these families and from Stamford Hill no it isnt the norm. its possible thats what worked out with your particular friends.""

No, I also saw that post, and I was thinking, what is she talking about? I know those families and two out of the three are definitely not geza families.
As far as I know, the definition of geza (which is Hebrew for "root" - with a thick Russian accent, "gezhe") is that your grandparents were chassidim in Russia, at least of the Rebbe Rashab, preferably even earlier.
BUT it is such a silly description. It means absolutely nothing, and is such a snobby, elitist way of defining a family. My family happens to be geza, and my husband's isn't, and who cares?
And it CERTAINLY does not impact on the chassidishkeit of the family!

Raisin

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 7:26 am

bandcm wrote:

yes they are certainly not all geze families. I don't like to talk about specific families on here though...

I think geze families might have certain cultural practices that other chabad families do not. I don't think it is more chassidish to meet only 3 times, yet if that was the way it was done in a certain family, they might think it is normal. Another thing - I know people from geze/ffb chabad families who married cousins, rarely first cousins but third or fourth cousins is no big deal. For me that would be a huge no no in shidduchim. (for medical reasons)

amother

Emerald

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 7:54 am

etky wrote:

Essentially I agree with you. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to prefer not to take on the extra baggage that coming from different backgrounds often introduces into a relationship. I considered that aspect myself when I was dating (also not the shidduch system at all). Yet where then does this leave gerim or BT in the shidduch system which, as I understand, is so heavily based on common background, yichus and practicalities and does not afford much leeway for personal chemistry to overide these considerations? Must they only marry other gerim or BT or FFB who for whatever reason are being pressured into "settling"? This seems to be a very difficult position to be in.

It's not necessarily baggage and they may not want a convert for very superficial reasons (what will people think if they settle, heck, why should they "settle" themselves??) but everyone is entitled to their preferences. I never wanted to consider a ger because while I believe in everything Jewish I only know/keep it because I was born into it. I'm not a spiritual person who would seek out religion and didn't feel compatible with people who did seek out religion.
And while I agree it's a difficult position to be in it's often reality. We all have things that make us less desirable (ok, most of us) and have to find someone willing to "settle" on that. For me it was weight. I was often redt to bt's or someone with a "past" or whatever and almost always someone that was really overweight. I was even once turned down by someone overweight saying he wouldn't really care but since he is also fat he wants a thin girl so his kids have a chance. I have a nice family so didn't need to marry into one and a ger looking for a nice family would have done great in mine but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been particular about my weight so it's unfair in both directions. That's life. Turns out I married a wonderful ffb who was not overweight.

Sadie

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:11 am

etky wrote:

I honestly don't understand how people can become religious and do shidduchim in cultures where family status and background are so heavily emphasized, and you are so thoroughly researched before the other person even has a chance to meet you. It seems like it would be so demoralizing and really lead directly to this problem of being pressured to marry someone you don't love or even like much.
Among my friends and community in Israel when I was converting, I think most of the people I knew were BT or somewhat BT immigrants, people who had pasts and were finding themselves religiously, and we met people at shabbos meals, work, through friends etc.
I had some upsets such as the traumatic date I posted about earlier, but for the most part was very successful at dating because guys got to know me before hearing a list of qualities. I think this type of community- among other searchers, being able to socialize with potential partners- is the ideal place to date as a BT/ger. I don't know that I would have survived the formal shidduch scene with my self-esteem intact.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:25 am

imasoftov wrote:

It's not like the Torah tells us in 24 different places not to mistreat geirim ...

How is not wanting to marry someone mistreating them? I say this as someone who married the first guy I dated, who happens to be FFB, but I certainly would have had no objection to a ger. However, my parents are divorced and one of them married a ger and there are a lot of challenges that come with it. Obviously every choice you could make has it's own set of cons, but people should know what they can handle. Nothing wrong with admitting I don't think I can handle this type of challenge. That's not "mistreating" or "oppressing" anyone.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:26 am

Do I mistreat bearded guys if I wouldn't marry one?
My choice. It may turn against me if my mazal is bearded and I pass him, btw. But my choice.

If you're not going to deal with it well, don't marry a ger, a born Jew, a BT, a FFB... not all gerim want a born Jew or BT a FFB, btw. Much bigger problem to have issues with it AFTER than BEFORE.

That said, not all gerim have "a past" of the sort people seem to fantasize about. And some FFB messed up in horrible ways.

I do not see that gerim are left on the side, except maybe those who would only seek out yichus. But if they approach shidduchim normally, I don't see them being much more rejected than others. Very few get only yesses in their dating carreer lol.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:48 am

amother wrote:

just so you are aware, there are "ffb" gerim. My sibling is a ger, since my mother converted along with this sibling after they were born. My parents went on to have many more children.

Also, a child can be adopted and converted by ffb parents.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:59 am

amother wrote:

I'm well aware, I was using the lingo in a cultural sense, not as a strict definition. You can also have a situation where you are FFB but people assume you are a ger because you look different. Happens to my siblings all the time. People think they have an "interesting" story because of how they look. They don't. They were born and raised Jewish and frum just the same as the people making silly assumptions..

amother

Teal

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:55 am

That sounds pretty terrible. I just have to say, as a chabad shlucha, that there is a college student in our community who is working on converting. I am secretly hoping she'll give my brother a shot once she's done with the process. She is definitely the "top of the barrel", and my brother would be lucky to find someone like her to spend the rest of his life with. I just don't want to approach it too enthusiastically when the time comes since we are her conversion sponsors, and I don't want her to feel any sort of pressure or obligation to us. Although I do think she is sweet on him so hopefully it will just happen organically. Smile

anyway, just wanted to share a different perspective!

amother wrote:

A BT friend of mine was pressured hardcore into marrying her first husband. The people who dealt with shidduchim or whatever at the seminary we both went to pressured her to accept a date with a guy from the men's yeshiva tied to our seminary, who was older than her (she was mid 20s at the time). After the first date, they told her that she had to accept a second date, she had to agree to engagement, because she was already "too old" to find anyone better, that she was "damaged" from her "wild" past (honestly, from what she told me, it sounded like she had a pretty normal life as a non religious 20-something, she had some boyfriends but nothing I'd remotely call "wild"). She voiced concerns that he was almost 10 years older and divorced already, but they told her that he was such a good learner and she had to settle down or she'd never get married.

They got engaged after 3 dates. The very first frum person she ever went on any dates with. He was abusive to her even in the engagement, but she had her head wrapped around this idea that she was 'damaged' so much that she couldn't see it.

They divorced a bit over a year into the marriage. In that time, there was a lot of verbal and emotional abuse, a lot of threats of abandoning her 5+ months pregnant for a prettier, younger wife. They ended up divorcing, and I think she was extremely damaged by the experience. I think she ended up remarrying, but it's very unfortunate she had to go through any of this.

This was all Chabad. I don't think this is remotely typical of Chabad, so I am not trying to shed a bad light on Chabad in general. I just think it was handled EXTREMELY poorly. I don't get what the end game was for the shadchanim involved. She voiced her concerns and they blew them off. IMO the "blood" is on their hands on this one, I think they knew it wasn't perfect but they don't think the wonderful BT women who come into their seminary are worth anything more than the bottom of the barrel of the men, so that's who they set them up with. Then simply try to tell them that it's their life mission to be a nice jewish mommy and have lots of kids, and all you need to have kids is a man, any man. It's disturbing.

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:14 am

amother wrote:

Yes, rejecting someone knowing nothing about them other than that they are a ger is mistreatment.

There are a lot of challenges that come with just about anything, but to assume that every marriage between an FFB and a ger involves the same challenges is not reasonable.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:26 am

imasoftov wrote:

I disagree. There are significant cultural challenges that come with having to navigate having non-Jewish family, even if they are the nicest people in the world. You will also have to deal with a certain heaping of prejudice. Not everyone is strong enough to deal with those things, they should be allowed to say "no thanks" without being accused of violating a deoraisa. Just like one should be allowed to say they're not up for dealing with well-controlled mental illness or difficult family situations without being accused of perpetuating stigma.

amother

Ivory

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

I think there is a huge difference in a culture where people date for a short amount of time, but are under no pressure to marry the first guy they date and culturally it's the norm to date at least a few guys (most yeshivish and Chabad dating that I am aware of), and a culture where there is an expectation to marry the first person you are set up with, or maybe the second.

This ^^
Most people I know meet once maybe twice. I remember feeling so cool that I met dh twice lol. And that our first meeting was over an hour. Wow was I "lucky".
I feel that in the chassidish world the meeting is just a formality to get over with. And it's not so much the parents pressuring (although there are parents that are crazy/narrow-minded? like that) it's the girl/boy themselves that doesn't even consider it an option to say no.
I don't see that they are encouraged to see if they feel some kind of basic attraction. Dh's maggid shiur gives boys a b'show prep talk and tells them not to look at the girl and only talk to her in third person! I was horrified to hear that. Of course dh has his own common sense and did not follow one word of what he said. But please! Many bochurim are way more naive than him and the magid shiur's word is the ultimate word.