Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

I disagree. There are significant cultural challenges that come with having to navigate having non-Jewish family, even if they are the nicest people in the world. You will also have to deal with a certain heaping of prejudice. Not everyone is strong enough to deal with those things, they should be allowed to say "no thanks" without being accused of violating a deoraisa. Just like one should be allowed to say they're not up for dealing with well-controlled mental illness or difficult family situations without being accused of perpetuating stigma.

We should drop the standard discourage-them-three-times routine for geirim and just send them for a meeting with a shadchan who agrees with the above.

marina

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 12:21 pm

bandcm wrote:

No, I also saw that post, and I was thinking, what is she talking about? I know those families and two out of the three are definitely not geza families.
As far as I know, the definition of geza (which is Hebrew for "root" - with a thick Russian accent, "gezhe") is that your grandparents were chassidim in Russia, at least of the Rebbe Rashab, preferably even earlier.
BUT it is such a silly description. It means absolutely nothing, and is such a snobby, elitist way of defining a family. My family happens to be geza, and my husband's isn't, and who cares?
And it CERTAINLY does not impact on the chassidishkeit of the family!

I have no idea how gezhe they were or were not and I'm not the one who came up with that explanation. But yes, most of my English friends and their siblings - at least when I was dating- went out about 3 times. My husband went out with one of their sisters and he was also pressured after 3 times because that was what their family did, they said.

We all develop perceptions based on our experiences, so I'm sharing mine. Of course it could be that all these were anomalies, but from what I know the Stamford hill families tend to be a little over the top in most everything.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 12:36 pm

imasoftov wrote:

We should drop the standard discourage-them-three-times routine for geirim and just send them for a meeting with a shadchan who agrees with the above.

SO are you willing to use a shadchan who will pressure you that you can never turn down a shidduch unless you have an "acceptable reason"? Then you too can have a story worthy of this thread! Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make them an ignorant bigot. Believe me, I had plenty going against me in shidduchim, so I'm glad the very first shidduch turned out to be the winner for me. My background would have put on the automatic reject pile for a lot of people. I don't think that makes those families terrible people.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 12:59 pm

imasoftov wrote:

How many times does the Torah tell us how to treat bearded guys? Approximately.

Actually there are many sources encouraging or even enforcing a beard.
But, then, let's take an orphan. A widow. Just because they are, you are forced into dating them? you are not allowed to want someone never married, for exemple?

If you know for whatever reason some category isn't for you, you don't have to try anyway and then reject the person and disappoint the person (and even less agree out of fear of "mistreating").

These ideas do not help gerim. At all.

mirah2

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 2:12 pm

imaima wrote:

Did you make up this line to pressure people into dating against their will? Oh that's what a forced marriage feels like... That's precisely what the thread is all about.

Right, original person here who called you out on your post.

In no way am I suggesting that you should have been forced to date a ger if you didn't want to. But the content and tone of your original post did suggest a certain amount of outrage/automatic rejection of the mere idea of being set up with a ger, which is hurtful to read as someone who could have been on the other side of that set-up (with a Jewish guy, obviously ;-) Which is why I was (gently) trying to use a bit of DL'KZ and suggest that you might be a bit more careful in HOW you relate your story about the shadchan couple that tried to set you up with a ger.

To pick up on some other points:

Yes, there can be challenges in marrying a ger. This will depend on that ger's family. If someone has really thought about the issue and decided no, they wouldn't date a ger because they don't want to deal with those challenges, I can live with that (especially if they are prepared to consider exceptions to this 'rule'). What bothers me is the automatic, unthinking rejection of a ger as a possible candidate for a shidduch without even thinking it through. This smacks more of prejudice than anything else.

Re: whether refusing to marry a ger is the same as oppressing them - I've posted about this elsewhere. Basically, if everyone refuses to marry a ger and therefore allow them to integrate into the Jewish community then yes, that is oppression. And I would say the same if ppl were to start refusing to consider orphans as shidduchim.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 2:24 pm

mirah2 wrote:

if everyone refuses to marry a ger and therefore allow them to integrate into the Jewish community then yes, that is oppression. And I would say the same if ppl were to start refusing to consider orphans as shidduchim.

Just to play devil's advocate - almost everyone refuses to date widows (unless they are a widower or divorced themselves). Your typical 20-25 year old single man won't date a widow.

Is that oppression?
(personally I think it's problematic, but it isn't that simple)

imaima

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 2:27 pm

mirah2 wrote:

Well then you missed the point of the story, because the point was that I was offered precisely what I said I don't want. Had I said the same about gerrer chassidim and was offered gerrer chassidim, I would have been just as insulted.

What you must realise is that everyone has their own life to live. No one is going to sacrifice their happiness or waste their time to make a statement and say "YES! I even date a ger!"
No one needs "a pool" of candidates; everyone needs just one. I f you believe in G-d, you believe He will send you one at the right time, regardless of how many people want to date your type.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 2:35 pm

Some refuse orphans. MOs. Charedis. Redheads. Gerim. Non gerim. OOTers. Americans. Israelis. Ashkenazis. Overweight. Short.
One cannot say "I agree because I fear every one will refuse". Charity is nice but not in marriage. Actually it would be condescending and very explosive after. Maybe X rejects gerim but accepts redheads, and Y does the opposite. If I knew I would be "held" by a certain shidduch I would say from the beginning to not be presented to them.

LiLIsraeli

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 4:33 pm

bluebird wrote:

Why on earth would anyone be rejected based on hair color???

Redheads supposedly have difficult personality traits, such as anger or blood-thirstiness.

This has its source in the gemara which discusses how Eisav was a redhead and loved to hunt and kill, and Dovid Hamelech was also a redhead, but used his desire for blood in a positive manner - waging war against the enemies of Klal Yisrael.

That said, I love redheads and would not forbid my children from marrying one.

mirah2

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:53 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

I also think it's problematic. I also know it isn't that simple to date a widow, especially when there are children involved (I have a good friend who is a divorced single mother and can also see the complexities involved in her dating again).

BUT if you have an entire community saying it's perfectly acceptable that everyone's gut reaction to dating a widow is 'no' rather than 'I'd have to think about it', then yes, that's oppression.

mirah2

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:56 pm

imaima wrote:

I know what the point of your story was. My point was the way you told the story was hurtful...gnnrrghmmmhhmumble.

I give up. Clearly those high-minded expectations and standards of Judaism that I learnt while converting, such as being careful not to harm others with your speech, are being dashed uselessly against the hard rock of reality that is Imamother. I'll just go back into my little 'ger-mit' cave and count my blessings I was never in the shidduch system...

amother

Smokey

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 6:32 pm

amother wrote:

That sounds pretty terrible. I just have to say, as a chabad shlucha, that there is a college student in our community who is working on converting. I am secretly hoping she'll give my brother a shot once she's done with the process. She is definitely the "top of the barrel", and my brother would be lucky to find someone like her to spend the rest of his life with. I just don't want to approach it too enthusiastically when the time comes since we are her conversion sponsors, and I don't want her to feel any sort of pressure or obligation to us. Although I do think she is sweet on him so hopefully it will just happen organically. Smile

anyway, just wanted to share a different perspective!

I'm the amother who posted the story you quoted. I just want to say I really really appreciate you and your mindset! I also want to say that the born-chabad girls (I guess we called them shluchas but they were all 18-22 and unmarried) at this seminary were WONDERFUL. They would have NEVER had thoughts like this, not once in a million years. The terribly irony is that the shadchanim involved are chabad BT women themselves Sad

So they should really, really know better.

Best of luck to the student and your brother both!

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 7:49 pm

But doesn't the Rambam talk about some people not marrying a ger for 10 generations? And there being nothing wrong with this?

Personally, I am Syrian, if I were to marry a ger my entire family would be very uncomfortable because we are all under the takana so for that reason alone, regardless of what I personally might think, I would not have considered a ger when I was dating.

And I don't see anyone here upset about all the Ashkenazim who wouldn't date me because I am Sephardic. Or all the other people who wouldn't date me because my family has no money. Or because I am not pretty. People have criteria. It's the real world.

sourstix

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:06 pm

so there is such a concept, I dont know where its from, my father used to tell us. a person has a certain amount of time per shiduch thats bashert and he/she can miss it. that itself put quite a lot of pressure. I wasnt smart enough to say no at that point. I really had not had a great reason to say no. I was very naive.

amother

Orange

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:34 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know about your family...

But, my father's father was jewish, sefardi and secular. His children were not jewish. My father converted and took on his father's family's minhagim. He did not have trouble with this "takana." I would speak to your rav about it. My father's rebbi was syrian and his rebbi set my father up with many syrians. Anyway, his children -all sefardi- married ashkenazim. Their families were fine as was mine. My father did not have money, half of us married wealthier people and half married poor.

Maybe we need to redefine "real" world. We should all change to take on olam chesed yibaneh. Isn't that reality? Aren't these criteria just what is fake and just a smoke screen to distract us from reality. Some people who married healthy, end up sick. Sick people may actually be more healthy. People who marry rich, end up poor. Poor people end up rich. The original gerim are Avraham and all of the imahos. David hamelech comes from a ger. The only reality are those that work on their middos and relationships and try to bring more chesed into this world. Maybe to real problem is misplaced focus.