Luzer Twersky | Imamother

ora_43

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 6:26 pm

boymom wrote:

another point is , people are busy yelling about proper education for the boys.....
think about the chassidishe men you know that are financially well off.(and no- they don't all have money from stealing from the govt. they own businesses, real estate...) what kind of education do they have? A regular chassidishe education. they have a head for business, some good mazel and that's all there is.

We don't all have a head for business.

People are concerned that many or most chassidic men need more secular education than they're getting. Not that literally every single chassidic man will be perpetually held back due to poor secular education. It's like how schools get upset if 50% of their students flunk the Bagrut tests (or SATs, or whatever), even though 50% didn't.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 8:36 pm

Maya wrote:

Boymom, your arguments are so cliche. I wish you'd come up with something more original to support your claims.

Cliché or her personal narrative?

Quoting from http://www.imamother.com/forum.....rt=40 :

sequoia wrote:
WT* is up with people demanding "balance"???? Are you all nuts? This isn't journalism! It's a personal narrative!

Then MagentaYenta wrote
I suspect that you are a reader like me Sequoia. Folks who do not read extensively and often times be confused with regards to genre. No it's not realistic to think that a personal narrative is going to give the reader a 'balanced' view by their own definition. I get tired of explaining that these are individual stories, not formulaic romance novels. Few of these stories will give some readers the resolution they want. Life isn't like that.

boymom

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 10:32 pm

Maya wrote:

Cliche.
Pointing out the five percent of Chassidim who became millionaires as the reason for Chassidim not needing an education is a tired old cliche, and a false premise, and shallow reasoning. It baffles me every time someone brings up the argument.

maybe if its cliché then theres truth to it. and I don't necessarily mean millionares. there are plenty of chassidim that are leading normal comfortable lives without going through regents. some of them pushed themselves to go through college. so many chassidish men in college these days. some, I agree, couldn't make it through college- I agree, not enough educational background. guess what? theyre in business anyway. and if theyre not making it financially, is it soley because of lack of education? I cant think of any person that is struggling for parnassh because of a lack of education. and I think I know a lot of people. do you really think all those dropouts would even have the stamina to sit through college???? cmon. they couldn't even sit through yeshivah for 10 minutes.

seriously, give me some examples of people you know that are struggling in the frum world because a lack of education. (though if you make them up, I'd never know...)

also, on another topic, I think its very normal for parents not to give their children skills/shelter them, so as not to be able to integrate into the non jewish world. if you're a g-d fearing jew, then you hopefully believe that what you're doing is right, why would you give your children an opportunity to leave and do something you believe that's wrong.
would any normal non jewish family provide their children with the opportunity to become jewish or muslim or hindu??? no. how many jewish balei teshuvah or geirim are excommunicated by their family for doing somethingso wrong as becoming frum. its the way of the world. its the way parents are. they want their children to be like them. parents that are doctors, will expect their child to be in the medical field and will be devastated if their child is a clown in a circus.
but if has to do with chassidim , then it deserves a bashing. and its cruel. and horrible. and aweful . and abusive. that's all. old fashion anti Semitism or just self hating chassidim. people are upset with their way of life. want things different . so they bash their community. will unfortunately be like this till moshiach comes. may he be here quick.

Last edited by boymom on Tue, Jun 16 2015, 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 10:32 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Are these statistics accurate or just an example you made up?

Because if they're so abysmal, we are wasting the time of 50% of the children who will not be going on to college.

I think that's the reasoning many chassidish schools follow: whoever needs more than we offer will go and get it. The rest will be wasting their time - nu, bittul Torah!!

What about the girls, you ask? They do get a lot more than the boys. But regents? Why? Ch"v to put ideas of a career in her head.

boymom

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 10:37 pm

youngishbear wrote:

why are you connecting regents with career? when I went for my degree, and I didn't take regents, my college classmates were all complaining that the regents hey took were such a waste because it didn't help them for college at all. it didn't give them credits, and they still had to study in college despite the education they received. so they studied half hour less than me.

a jewish woman

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:02 pm

boymom wrote:

I had a high school diploma that the college accepted without taking regents. my brother didn't have a HS diploma and took some test before college and it gave him the same credentials as a HS diploma. from what I understand, every person is entitled to enter college regardless of educational background. they just make you take extra tests beforehand.

Which college did you attend? I have a friend who had a high school diploma from satmar and no college accepted her, not even Touro. She had to get a ged, and then take remedial classes at a community college before transferring to a senior college. I'm sure she would love to hear how you got accepted to college without an accredited high school diploma.

Maya

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:05 pm

a jewish woman wrote:

Actually, Satmar is an accredited high school diploma. SUNY accepted mine from Satmar Williamsburg, and a small private college in Brooklyn accepted my husband's.

oliveoil

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:12 pm

boymom wrote:

Just because some people make it big without an education, doesn't mean most people wouldn't benefit from one.

Let's assume earnings on a scale from 1-10.

With the current system, there is probably about 5% of people in the 9-10 range, 80% of people in the 0-2 range and the other $15% randomly distributed. So are some people doing well? Sure. But the rest are in the very bottom range.

WITH an education, that 80% majority would probably be scattered more in the 5-8 range.

asmileaday

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:43 pm

Maya wrote:

I couldn't agree more with you on this! Why shouldn't everyone have a chance to be successful and not only the top 5% that were extra driven to succeed? The chassidish boys' education is pathetic and everyone knows this. I'm absolutely not saying that everyone needs to be college ready, but basic education? That should be mandatory. Why should a grown man, with little children that he needs to support, have to kill himself in order to get an education that could have easily been given to him when he was younger and with no responsibilities. It makes zero sense.

asmileaday

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:52 pm

boymom wrote:

also, on another topic, I think its very normal for parents not to give their children skills/shelter them, so as not to be able to integrate into the non jewish world.

I'm sorry but this rationale is so ridiculously wrong. Maybe someone here can express what I'm thinking better because I'm not a great writer. (Gp2.0 are you volunteering?)

In my humble opinion giving children basic skills will equip them better to handle the general world while still remaining frum and making a kiddush hashem.

33055

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:56 pm

asmileaday wrote:

I think the 5% millionaires is on the high side. Of those that do make it, very few are legitimate if at all. Of the ones that don't make it to millionaire status most are not following the rules of larger society.

Where I live, most people are getting section 8 to help pay for their mortgages in homes they live in but are in someone else's name. I think the schemes are so prevalent that people are not aware there are alternatives.

The proof is the 92% medicaid rate. That would mean only 3% of the population are not millionaires and are living 400% above poverty level.

Education is one prong of the answer. The other is an awareness of civics and a respect for the law and larger society.

boymom

Tue, Jun 16 2015, 11:56 pm

oliveoil wrote:

WITH an education, that 80% majority would probably be scattered more in the 5-8 range.

why are you attributing more education to more success?
think of all the jobs out there, and think whether to reach that position, if one requires a higher education in high school or if one can pursue a degree in that field after yeshivah?
think about it before answering. think of all the men you and your husband know and think whether they aren't successful because of lack of education.
I can think of a list of plenty chassidish yingerleit from the same yeshivah that luzer twersky learned in, that pursued degrees without high school education, ranging from: physical therapist, insurance broker, doctors pa, a couple of psychologists with proper degrees, special ed, speech, real estate lawyer, engineer- (he is Israeli and started american college barely speaking English), interior decorator, business management...the list goes on.
all this done without going to high school,

point is, if you WANT to , you can pursue the career of your dreams. and if you can't, instead of blaming your own poor brain, you bash your community.

Last edited by boymom on Wed, Jun 17 2015, 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

boymom

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 12:00 am

a jewish woman wrote:

my diploma was state recognized without taking regents. I asked my principal before I graduated. it was excelsior college through tti.

vintagebknyc

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 12:01 am

boymom wrote:

I think you're being disingenuous. I know a number of professionals who went to good colleges without having finished high school, I'm assuming that's the kind of person you're speaking of when you say you know doctors/lawyers/etc. who've become so without graduating from high school. this is a thing, people do it all the time.

but these people go to college, and one cannot go to college without being educated beforehand.