Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 8:11 am

momaleh wrote:

My kids have all been born here and yes we live in a very anglo area. All my kids speak Hebrew probably better than English. I sometimes feel like I've lost my english but can' speak Hebrew all that well, so I'm kind of languageless Smile

The anglo bubble works for me - I have friends and a life in my native and comfortable language and culture, but there is no doubt about the fact that we live in Israel. My kids have equal friends that are anglo and Israeli, it's not an issue at all. If not for the bubble, I don't I'd be in E"Y. To each their own - it works great for my family and most that I know here.

Where do you live?

ora_43

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 8:19 am

amother wrote:

Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble? What's so great about Israeli culture? I am not saying that people shouldn't learn Hebrew, get jobs, interact with their non Anglo neighbors, go to the army, etc. But why is making "Aliyah" and being Israeli so much better than making Aliyah and being American. As long as you can support your family and your kids have nice friends and are well adjusted isn't it better to live in Israel and Live in a Jewish country rather than live in Chul because you can't be an Israeli? What's the big deal. Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?

When you raise your kids teaching them (even unintentionally) that Israelis are pushy and rude and aggressive, it tends to make integration much harder.

That's the main problem with "bubbles." They are culturally not-Israeli, and sometimes have many people who actively dislike Israeli culture. Sometimes kids are raised in a bubble and everything is fine and wonderful, but sometimes kids are raised in a bubble and end up with limited Hebrew skills, or end up feeling out of place in Israel or even hostile to Israel, or feeling out of place in both Israel and their parents' home country.

There are also many upsides to bubbles. But I do think the downsides are worth mentioning if someone's considering making aliyah to one. It's not "bad" per se, it just has its downsides. Parents raising kids in anglo bubbles need to be extra sure that everyone has strong Hebrew skills and that their kids are being exposed to all kinds of Israelis, just like parents raising kids outside anglo bubbles need to put more effort into teaching English.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 8:22 am

juggling wrote:

Oh, also. Don't teach your kids that Israelis are "pushy and rude." Or that "all the good stuff" comes from America. Etc. It's hard to do, since we are all so biased towards our culture of origin. But you aren't doing your kids any favors, as far as integration.

That is, I think, the biggest problem. I know people who make aliyah but cnt say one good thing about israeli clothing, toys, people, food. And keep on going on and one and on about those things from their country of origin. That is my pet peeve. It drives me crazy. That way of thinking is awful and I think the worst, even worse than living in an anglo bubble but integrating a lot into the society.

luppamom

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 9:03 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Interestingly, there are Israelis that love American stuff. A lot of my (Israeli) friends like Carters and Children's Place and think it's the best quality. I laugh b/c per American standards, it's considered pretty in the middle, nothing fancy. They also think my stroller, Baby Jogger Versa, is so cool when in actuality their strollers are newer and nicer models than mine! (Versa is a discontinued 2012 model.)

I really must say I enjoy things that are really made in Israel and are good quality. What I can't stand imported overpriced Chinese junk.

Sanguine

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 9:13 am

luppamom wrote:

My boys are sooooo Israeli, they'll only wear American sneakers Smile

amother

Blonde

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 3:38 pm

I think maybe OP meant that there's a sub culture within israeli culture, in some areas, which is the american bubble. Thats how I feel at least. I know women who made aliya 20-30 years ago and still cannot say or understand a word in Hebrew but they live in RBS or in specific areas in J-M and they get along just fine this way. With kids and families and even work.
Their neighbours all speak English, their friends too. They wear American brands because they travel every year or have stores that sell what they like and they buy American food because so many stores in those area sell them.
Is it good? Is it bad?
I have no idea.
I think it can be pretty bad when you NEED to speak Hebrew and you can't. I think it's pretty bad when you can no longer afford the American branded clothes and food that you are used to, yet you cannot get used to the israeli ones. Otherwise- it's not my way of living but Im not sure that any of the posts above really give a great answer as to why it's bad.

juggling

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 4:02 pm

amother wrote:

I know women who made aliya 20-30 years ago and still cannot say or understand a word in Hebrew but they live in RBS or in specific areas in J-M and they get along just fine this way. With kids and families and even work.

I find the above *very* hard to believe. And, if true, it has to be limited to those who have a very hard time with languages. In another part of Israel those same people would probably not manage, period.

I think the bottom line is, there are advantages and disadvantages. For many, the Anglo "bubble" enables them to make aliyah without going crazy. Others don't need or want to live in such a "bubble." Each family has to decide what works for them.

It's kind of like debating whether to go for the epidural. Now, that's a topic worth debating... Wink

luppamom

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 4:32 pm

juggling wrote:

It likely also has to do with the kids. There are kids that grow up that are neither Israeli or American. They're somewhere in the middle. I have a friend like that. Some may be able to handle it, but not all.

Sanguine

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 5:10 pm

My neighborhood is full of Americans but the original ones have been here 35 years. There's a lot of English but everyone really wants to be Israeli. We don't want to recreate America here. No one commutes to NY. We all speak English at home but my kids speak Hebrew amongst themselves. Even when they were young I realized that the "serious" language was Hebrew - The Ganenet's language. DH is very "Israeli" (not originally). He even picked up the accent and all the slang. He reads Hebrew newspapers. My kids are big so our Shabbat table talk is about politics, the army, our moetza, other news things... It's all in Hebrew. And it's all Israeli life. My kid's Israeli friends feel comfortable talking at our table. My older son said to me one day - You know we're all going to marry Israelis shock

.

You can get by with only English in my neighborhood, but that's OK if you're someone's 80 year old parents moving to Israel to retire with their grandchildren. There are enough English speakers in the park. There will always be an English speaker in the Makolet. My parents come to Israel to visit. They stay in Yerushalayim and can take buses, go shopping... with just English, but my mother says she'll never move here for good. She can't stand that she has to ask one of us to call the phone company for her... She's used to being a grown up in control of her life. She says she's too old to really learn Hebrew. She's third generation American so she says she doesn't want to move to Israel and be like those European mothers like some of my friends had (a little snobby but everyone talks slow and loudly to foreigners cause you think they're not too bright if they don't understand you). That's what you're making yourself if you don't join Israeli society. The old Bubby making gefilte fish and speaking Yiddish in America.

How tight is the RBS bubble? Are there any Israelis in the neighborhood? Are there Israeli kids in the classes? are there Israeli neighbors and Israelis in shul? Are the kids mixing with Israelis? A bubble is a problem if it's going to make it hard for people who want to later mix with Israelis

m in Israel

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 1:47 am

I hear both sides, but I am with juggling on this one. I do agree that the more of a "bubble" you live in, the slower you become an "Israeli" -- but IME even in a "bubble" like RBS, the next generation really does become Israeli. Unless you are somehow sending your kids to English speaking schools, Hebrew does become their language.

Whenever this discussion comes up, I think of my husband's aunt. They made Aliyah about 40 years ago, and for the most part raised their kids in Har Nof at the time when that was the "American bubble". She has 8 kids, 4 who were born in the U.S. and 4 who were born here. Some of the kids married complete Israelis, and some married those with American backgrounds, but regardless, ALL of her grandchildren are complete Israelis! Most don't speak any English beyond what they learn in school. About 15 grandchildren are married, and only one married someone with an Anglo background and that was just a coincidence (he himself speaks no English so the fact that his wife happens to have an American mother was not a factor). My aunt herself does speak a fluent Hebrew (she spoke a pretty good Hebrew before her Aliya from her "Ivrit b'Ivrit" schooling in the U.S.), but with a very American accent. My point is that while the "bubble" may slow things down over the first bunch of years, in the long run I don't think it hurts. For many people the advantages in terms of a smoother klita (especially if you make Aliyah with kids who are already older) may outweigh the fact that it takes a bit longer to become fully "Israeli".

The truth it that it is completely normal when large groups of people emigrate from the same country to create "mini" versions of their old home in their new country. I lived in Queens, NY before coming on Aliya, and there are many large immigrant communities there that are certainly just as much of a "bubble" as RBS, if not more! There are areas where you don't see a single English store sign -- one area that is completely Korean, a different area that is primarily Pakistani, etc. The stores carry food and clothing from the original country, business is done in that language, etc. Hey, think of the Jewish communities on the lower east side pre WWII! (Remember Shmuel Kunda's line in the song "the Italian who sold fish put a sign up in Yiddish" Smile

). But even in these scenarios, the next generation becomes "American".

m in Israel

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 1:55 am

amother wrote:

RBS has only been around for about 15 years, and in the early years really was NOT an Anglo bubble (as Shabbat pointed out, it is really only in the past 8 -- 10 years that it turned so predominately Anglo). So if your friends have been living here for 30 years, it certainly wasn't in RBS! But putting that aside, even in RBS you need a lot of Hebrew. The kids are still going to school and doing their work in Hebrew, all official business with the city or the government or the bank is in Hebrew, etc. So I would guess that someone living here for so many years who can't even say "a word" in Hebrew has some sort of underlying language issue, and they likely could not have managed Aliyah at all without the support of a community in their native language. There is no reason to assume that someone who didn't pick up ANYTHING in 20 years would have become a fluent Hebrew speaker in a more Israeli environment.

etky

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 2:01 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I love reading about the rbs bubble. We lived in rbs a 10 years ago. My sister had a friend who grew up in rbs. She was sfardi israeli. She did not even know that there were anglos living there Smile

Also, we have friends now, her parents are american and british. She also grew up in rbs and she said that until the middle of high school there were NO english speakers in her class at all. So rbs was not always the anglo haven that people know it to be. Its just funny.

They must have been growing up at the very, very early stages of the community since RBS is just over 20 years old. It was really just being built in the early nineties. Anglos began moving in towards the mid-nineties and IIRC they were mostly DL at that stage.
The haredi Anglo bubble came a bit later, and was boosted especially by the early NBN aliyot.

momaleh

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 2:10 am

I'm in rbs as well, and most of my neighbors are Israeli. My kids speak English and Hebrew amongst themselves. Most of the girls in their classes are Israeli, but they go to one of the less anglo schools here. The teachers don't speak a word of English, so trust me, I have to get into it! Yes, there are more anglo areas, but even there there are plenty of only Hebrew speakers. the "bubble" is not very tight at all. Anglos do not make up even half the population here, although we're definitely growing. and most people at least that I know are not looking to recreate america, they are looking to fit in and acclimate to this country. Just in a more comfortable way.

luppamom

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 3:06 am

m in Israel wrote:

). But even in these scenarios, the next generation becomes "American".

DH has a great aunt, she should be gezunt, who made aliya in 1949 IIRC. She came on a tour and fell and love with the land and decided she's making aliya. She found her husband there. Her descendants are completely Israeli and they all live in Israel. (Something she's very proud of.) She herself prefers to speak in Ivrit (I think it's ideological too) and her Ivrit sounds native even though I think she was 19 when she made aliya. (There were no Anglo bubbles and she wanted to learn the language.)

DrMom

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 3:15 am

juggling wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

I know many people like this who live in Anglo neighborhoods in Yerushalayim, RBS, etc. They have Anglo friends and socialize and English-language clubs and events, etc. They even speak English to store clerks, assuming, "heck, most people here know English, right?" They're like permanent tourists.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to believe these people exist. I've been to neighborhoods in LA where Spanish is the default, and many long-time residents do not speak English.