Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble

m in Israel

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 4:04 am

DrMom wrote:

I know many people like this who live in Anglo neighborhoods in Yerushalayim, RBS, etc. They have Anglo friends and socialize and English-language clubs and events, etc. They even speak English to store clerks, assuming, "heck, most people here know English, right?" They're like permanent tourists.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to believe these people exist. I've been to neighborhoods in LA where Spanish is the default, and many long-time residents do not speak English.

I know lots of people who also prefer English, and use it most of the time. But I really don't know anyone who has been here for 20 to 30 years who doesn't speak a word in Hebrew, like amother described. Even those who lived in very Anglo neighborhoods can if necessary muddle there way through an encounter in Hebrew. And certainly with the way neighborhoods move and change, (and as the Israeli born children grow up) what neighborhood even exists that has been consistently an "Anglo bubble" for literally 30 years?

FranticFrummie

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 4:06 am

Nefesh b'Nefesh has a whole section devoted to "hard" and "soft" landings, when planning Aliyah, based on if you want to start out in a bubble or not. Depending on the age of your kids, your own language skills, etc. each side has it's pros and cons. Like I said upthread, neither one is good or bad, per se.

My city is a major absorption center for Russians and Ukranians, with a smattering of Hungarians thrown in. At the Maccabbee clinics, your check in choice is Ivrit or Russian, NO English! None of the receptionists speak English, so you have to find someone who's waiting in line to take pity on you and translate. BTDT embarrassed

Same thing with the banks.

You can get along perfectly fine here if you only speak Russian and never learn Ivrit, so bubbles do exist in other language centers as well.

I am lucky, because I'm good with languages. If I had to move someplace that had a language based in algebra or triginomotry (lol, I can't even spell it right) I would never, EVER be able to figure it out, so I do have sympathy for people who are not able to grasp the language easily.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 7:32 am

m in Israel wrote:

HN, neve Yakov- the first two that popped into my mind...sorry that it's hard to believe but it happens to be true Smile

I actually know these people. I even know one that works here in an American company and still knows no Hebrew.

sunny90

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 8:57 am

Okay well my family made aliyah to RBS 13 years ago, when I was 12. My Hebrew isn't that great because I didn't WANT to make aliyah so I made an active effort not to learn it in high school (mature, I know, but that was my little rebellion). I can definitely get by and my accent is pretty Israeli, but I tend to forget random simple words under pressure.
We lived for 3 years in chul and then moved back here when our oldest was almost 2. We sent all our kids to English gan for their age 2 gan, and are very very makpid that we only speak English in the house, but so far my two older kids are VERY comfortable in Hebrew. They are in Israeli schools but most of their friends are Anglo. My husband speaks Hebrew better than I do because he worked with Israelis since we moved here.
And I LOVE my Anglo bubble. I love the community, and we have plenty of Israelis in our building/street, but my social group (whether from high school or after) is Anglo and I like it that way thank you very much.

m in Israel

Fri, Nov 06 2015, 9:01 am

amother wrote:

HN, neve Yakov- the first two that popped into my mind...sorry that it's hard to believe but it happens to be true Smile

I actually know these people. I even know one that works here in an American company and still knows no Hebrew.

OK, so we clearly have very different definitions of an "Anglo bubble". I would never have considered Neve Yaakov an "Anglo bubble". Yes, an areas with a respectable Anglo population, but definitely not the type of neighborhood where the kids in cheder speak English during hafsaka, as happens in some of the chadorim here in RBS. Har Nof definitely was an Anglo bubble at one point, but my understanding is that over the past 15 years it has really become much less so and is now a pretty mixed neighborhood.

I do consider RBS (where I live) somewhat of a bubble, but that is not a 30 year old community.

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 07 2015, 2:36 pm

I think those who are keeping their kids in an Anglo bubble are, as someone mentioned, being very selfish to their children (I define Anglo bubble as your children are more comfortable in English than Hebrew - assuming they were born here or moved here before school age; you push your home culture as better than Israeli culture - whether that means manners, shopping, better educated etc.; you use lots of products from your home country, including those that can't be bought here; you frequently kvetch about how wonderful it was 'there' and how bad it is 'here').

It is hard to move to a new country, especially when that new country has a different language. We Jews have been doing this frequently for two thousand years. Most of us were born in a different country to that where our grandparents, or certainly great-grandparents were born.

The immigrant generation has it hard. So by insisting on living in an Anglo bubble, what you are effectively doing is pushing off that hardship from yourself to your children. To make yourself more comfortable, you are limiting your children's job prospects, study prospects, yeshiva prospects, marriage prospects, where to live prospects etc. Not only is this selfish, but in Israel (unlike any other country) there is help for olim - free or cheap ulpan, consideration when taking tests, help getting a job or setting up a business etc. etc. But your children who are born here will face those difficulties without getting these benefits.

It was hard to read here that some people have no problem with the fact that their children's Hebrew is okay, almost as good as their English, not so bad etc. If they were born here or moved here at a young age, their Hebrew should be native! And English their second language!

Someone mentioned that you always think your home culture is superior. Well, I've virtually only come across this attitude with Americans. It seems part of the US (as opposed to anywhere else including other Anglo countries) culture - to look down on every other culture as inferior (other cultures may think the health service/ education system/ manners/ shopping etc. was better in their country of origin, but don't think one country is the Best in Absolutely Everything).

And, lastly, the children brought up this way don't really fit in anywhere. They still are "too Israeli" for that country for where they have a passport but have never lived, but are "too _______" to really fit in here.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 07 2015, 2:41 pm

Shalhevet, I agree with almost everything that you wrote except this. I have met many south african who believe that their country is better than gan eden and I have met english people like that as well. And there are many americans who dont feel that way at all.
Just pointing this out. It is not only americans and not all americans are like that.
But other than that, I completely agree with your other points.

shalhevet wrote:

Someone mentioned that you always think your home culture is superior. Well, I've virtually only come across this attitude with Americans. It seems part of the US (as opposed to anywhere else including other Anglo countries) culture - to look down on every other culture as inferior (other cultures may think the health service/ education system/ manners/ shopping etc. was better in their country of origin, but don't think one country is the Best in Absolutely Everything).

ora_43

Sat, Nov 07 2015, 3:02 pm

m in Israel wrote:

I've never met an oleh who literally doesn't speak a single word of Hebrew, but I've met many olim who barely speak any Hebrew even after many years here. As in, it would be very difficult for them to have any conversation more complex than "where is X street?" "this street is X street."

(Not just American, ftr - American, but also Russian, Ukrainian, etc)

I don't think it's a language learning issue. Maybe a little of that, but a lot of it is not needing Hebrew. If someone comes here as an adult, and doesn't need to speak Hebrew at work, and is busy with work and home and raising kids, and all of their friends speak their native language - of course they would barely learn any Hebrew, unless they made a deliberate choice to put in the extra effort. And why would they? They get by fine without it.

It's like why (I'm guessing) almost none of us on this site speak Arabic. Sure, you need Arabic in many communities here, but if you're not living in one of those communities and don't feel the need to learn for ideological reasons, you probably won't bother.

water_bear88

Sat, Nov 07 2015, 3:11 pm

Why does thinking American manners are superior mean I'm hurting my kids? I also say that the Mediterranean diet is way healthier (and tastes better); that whichever group you want to argue is overall the most Zionist- it isn't us; that we never would have made it in the US between tuition and health insurance, and that we're lucky to live somewhere with a higher life expectancy.

I believe that part of kibbutz galuyot mean learning from each other's cultures. Mine isn't worse than any other nor better than any other. I don't want to live in an Anglo bubble or an Israeli one- I want to live somewhere with a mix of olim from different countries. My kids won't speak English at recess if the other kids have French or Amharic as their parents' language- they'll all need to speak Hebrew to communicate.

Sanguine

Sat, Nov 07 2015, 5:41 pm

amother wrote:

Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble? What's so great about Israeli culture?

I think the part about wanting to become Israeli and fit into the life and culture has to do with your background and why you came. My friends and I grew up as members in Bnei Akiva always planning on Aliya. We were fine at home with our families but we always planned to move to Israel. We weren't into American culture. We wore things like Israeli sandalim (the Tanachi ones), covers on our watchbands (like chayalim have), we ate egozis and taffy peirot, listened to Israeli music, had Israeli flag stickers, told Israeli jokes, celebrated Yom HaAtmaut... We knew Israeli Shlichim in America and they weren't rude and pushy. They were true blue Israelis and thats what we wanted to be.

See - That's my Aliya. It doesn't mean that I forgot all my American upbringing and I still like Hershey's chocolate. But I want to be part of the Israeli society. There's room for English speaking Americans here too but you're missing a lot if you think your little bubble is enough. My neighbors speak English too and we speak English to each other when we're alone, but we also mingle with our Israeli neighbors and let them set the tone. We want to be Israeli.

You don't. ~~That's OK~~. Wait!!! Just changed my mind. It's not OK and I'll tell you why. (just thought about this - I was thinking as I wrote and now this became clear). I grew up in a Zionistic youth movement. we were always doing for Israel. We collected money, wrote letter, went to rallies, marched in the Israel day Parade. Israel was ours and that's how I feel now since we made aliya too. I'm not a visitor or here for a few years. This is our home and the home of our kids and theirs and theirs... and more important, it's the Jewish country. It's ours! We give to the state more than just our required taxes. Our boys serve in the army for 3 years and our daughters in Sherut Leumi for 2 years. In America everyone rushes to get as many degrees for themselves as they can. Here the kids first give a few years to the country before they think of themselves. That's Israeli society (giving, not rudeness like you think). We're involved in politics and letter writing and rallies cause this is our country and we want to be part of building it's future. We don't vote for the same party every election. We know the issues and choose the party that will govern our country best.

You can bring us Hershey kisses, ziploc bags, good coffee, carter's stretchies... from America, But don't bring us The American Dream ("the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility for the family and children, achieved through hard work"). That's so not Jewish. That's not the Israeli dream. Israel's dream isn't for individuals. It's for all of Am Yisrael. We're a country of Jews caring for other Jews too. כל ישראל זה לזה . Why would you think it's OK to live here but not join the society? This isn't America. This is the Jewish homeland. This country belongs to you. It was given to Avraham Aveinu for all us Jews. אל תפרוש מן הציבור . Am Yisrael is strongest when we're united. These "pushy and rude and aggressive" Israelis are part of Am Israel just like you. And they understand about thinking of all of Am Yisrael, not just their little bubble. They're warm, caring, intrusive, opinionated... You have to come join Am Yisrael and you would never ask "Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?"

etky

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:26 am

People come here for a variety of reasons.
Some come because it is the fulfillment of their Zionist dream.
Some because it is Eretz Hakodesh.
Some come to improve their standard of living.
Some come to escape anti-Semitism.
Some come because they're old and want a warmer climate and they happen to be Jewish.
All of these are valid reasons and not all require cultural assimilation in order to be fully realized.

The extent of acculturation depends, among other things, on the stage of life that people are at when they arrive here, their own personalities, psychological needs and linguistic abilities, and the existing communal infrastructure for people from their place of origin that would allow them to retain their own culture in a close-knit environment.
It's a personal choice about how far you are willing to move out of your comfort zone and to what extent you value being "Israeli". The answer is different for everyone.
I agree that with kids it's alot more complicated.

I think that what it means to be Israeli nowadays has also changed.
On the one hand,in today's world it's a lot harder to become Israeli and jettison your culture of origin with its expectations and symbols than decades ago when it took weeks for an airmail letter to travel between the US and Israel and long distance phone calls were calculated by the second. Nowadays, western culture is instantly accessible and all-pervasive here. If you're coming from the US in particular, it's practically impossible to detach.
OTOH Israeli culture and the Israeli marketplace itself has shifted and is a lot more oriented towards and inclusive of elements from western culture (for good and for bad....). Many values and mannerisms have seeped in so there's much less of a dichotomy than there used to be.

I also think that Israelis themselves have become less clannish and more cosmopolitan and are thus more tolerant than they used to be of people from different cultural and linguisitic backgrounds. I think overall there's more room for diversity than there used to be and less of a need to 'blend in' in order to be considered a bona fide Israeli. With a working knowledge of Hebrew and a grip on how to work the different systems here - as long as your main focus is what is going on here and not in your country of origin, you can be Israeli even if you get your news in English from Arutz 7 rather than Ynet or use zip-locs from America instead of the local stuff.