Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble

DrMom

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:40 am

m in Israel wrote:

I know lots of people who also prefer English, and use it most of the time. But I really don't know anyone who has been here for 20 to 30 years who doesn't speak a word in Hebrew, like amother described. Even those who lived in very Anglo neighborhoods can if necessary muddle there way through an encounter in Hebrew. And certainly with the way neighborhoods move and change, (and as the Israeli born children grow up) what neighborhood even exists that has been consistently an "Anglo bubble" for literally 30 years?

I suppose I took the phrase "doesn't speak one word of Hebrew" less literally than you did.

Obviously, every Jew who knows how to say shma knows at least "one word of Hebrew."

I took the phrase to mean "might know a few super-rudimentary phrases but beyond that, fuhgettaboutit," or "can't function in any sustained and practical way in a Hebrew-speaking environment without resorting to English."

edited for typos

Sanguine

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 4:28 am

OP-amother red wrote:

Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble? What's so great about Israeli culture? I am not saying that people shouldn't learn Hebrew, get jobs, interact with their non Anglo neighbors, go to the army, etc. But why is making "Aliyah" and being Israeli so much better than making Aliyah and being American. As long as you can support your family and your kids have nice friends and are well adjusted isn't it better to live in Israel and Live in a Jewish country rather than live in Chul because you can't be an Israeli? What's the big deal. Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?

Is OP around? She asked a question and got a lot of answers. She never came back after her OP for the discussion. She called Israeis "pushy and rude and aggressive". Does she live here? Can she back up her name-calling or are these things she's heard about Israelis? (kind of like the Meraglim talking bad about EY - and here, Am Yisrael too). Well, she got different opinions of how much integration is preferred but no one here agreed with her question "Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?"

Where is she? She's anon, uses such name-calling and then disappears. She could have asked her first question "Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble?" without the terrible stereotype name calling. (I'm tempted to report her as a troll except that we enjoyed the discussion and even though it's sometimes frustrating here, no one here would say such a thing Smile

)

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 4:33 am

Sanguine wrote:

)

sanguine, already on the first page of this thread I replied with asking if the OP even lived in Israel. No reply. Also she did not post this is the israel forum, so possibly not in israel.

Sanguine

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 4:42 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

sanguine, already on the first page of this thread I replied with asking if the OP even lived in Israel. No reply. Also she did not post this is the israel forum, so possibly not in israel.

Noticed that, but a little more detecting... Her OP is from 10:23 AM here (3:23 in NY - does that make her from here? but why not LII?) - Can be late in LA or Australia or Europe. Let's play guess who she is Very Happy

Sanguine

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 5:50 am

luppamom wrote:

Not to be a spoilsport, but I have started threads and then must have clicked unfollow by accident b/c I never saw my thread. Then, either I wanted to look back at it or I happened to be browsing imamother and I am like, "hey! why didn't I see all of that?"

This is what I gain from this forum - Always DLKZ. But she didn't ask for Best Cholent advice. She asked an important question and insulted a nation. Sorry, you don't make comments like that and just leave. Four pages of people willing to discuss. We don't all agree on everything but we discuss and at least try to respect each other.

If she forgot that she asked such a question, she'll never come back then I can keep guessing who she is. How about:

luppamom

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 6:34 am

Sanguine wrote:

Oh for sure. Nobody can get away with calling me rude and pushy.

Signed,
Israeli and proud!

amother

Brunette

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 12:01 pm

Im not op however I do understand her question. I dont live in e"y however I have a neighbor that for medical reasons come to live in the states. She was telling me how hard it was to get used to the American culture. She was so used to pushing and screaming talking in a Loud tone, she didn't understand the stares she got at one point someone called the police to her cuz she thought its ' normal' to push someone to get though without saying sorry! So yes the Israelis have an aggressive nature.

I myself have bein to e"y many time and had bein pushed and screamed at for nothing!!!! Its the Isreali way of interacting.

ora_43

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:25 pm

amother wrote:

I've lived in Israel and America, and while Israelis are definitely comfortable with a lot less personal space in crowded stores, markets, etc, there is not a chance that an Israeli would genuinely think that pushing someone to the point where it'd become an issue for police is remotely normal.

Either your neighbor is making excuses and her behavior is actually appalling by Israeli standards too, or your neighbor isn't very bright, or the person she pushed overreacted in the extreme (seriously, who would call the police if all that happened was that someone brushed by without saying "excuse me"? I mean, it's horribly rude, but police aren't there to enforce good manners).

Ditto re: your experience being screamed at here - what makes you think it's normal? Not everything every Israeli does is considered normal behavior in Israel.

SacN

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:45 pm

I just want to say I love this thread.

We are young. Adaptable. I never thought I'd live here (And didn't want to) and here I am. Happy.

We live in a small anglo community inside of a larger Israeli one. I'm as American as they come, but I live here. My budget is Israeli, my kids play with other anglo kids in Hebrew, I pass muster talking to the bank people and the ganenet and whatever, and I think my kids will never wonder if they really should have just been American.

My neighborhood is already getting too Anglo for me. Sigh.

grace413

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:55 pm

I'm visiting the States right now and I must say that I'm amazed by the lack of horn-honking and the amazing politeness of sales clerks. That said, I don't think all Israelis pushy and aggressive and I think a lot of the politeness here in the States is superficial. Obviously even in different areas here things are different - I'm in South Florida where life in general is more laid back than New York (and the average age in this area is about 95).

Sanguine

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 1:56 pm

amother wrote:

Please don't analyze Israelis by one story by one person nor some crazy story of yours. No one ever screamed at me and I've been here more than 25 years. Maybe you were blocking someone from getting on the bus and you didn't understand when they asked you nicely to move and they didn't realize that you didn't understand and thought you were purposely blocking them - Whatever happened, there are all types everywhere.

There are different social norms that you might find rude. My children call their friend's parents by their first name. HOW RUDE!! Or that's the Israeli informal way. Even the Rabbanim in Yeshiva are often called Rav Yaakov and not Rav Cohen.

An Israeli might insist on holding your baby while you settle your toddler on the bus. And might even offer that crying toddler a piece of their orange without consulting with you. (And they'll gang up and give you advice that you didn't ask for). They'll insist the driver turns the radio up for the hourly news and then erupt into an argument across the bus about the news items.

Pushing, screaming and being aggressive is NOT the way Israeli nature. But you're allowed to say what you think here and not everyone agrees all the time.

Until you live here, don't think you have us all figured out.

Iymnok

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 2:47 pm

What you said. The politeness feels superficial in the us. I know an Israeli who told her kids to say please, sorry or thank you to anyone they encounter and they'll be okay.
There is no Hebrew word for sorry. Slicha is for when you actually hurt someone. Mitztaer is when you feel so sorry it hurts you.
None for please either. Bevakasha is a request, Na is biblical and pleading, I usually use efshar which has a totally different meaning, but works more or less.

People here just seem more real to me. etiquette to me is so overrated and hides people.

ora_43

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 3:04 pm

I think etiquette is a good thing. I think it's possible that, on average, Israel has more pushy people, due to both culture and situation (eg areas where if you don't push to get on the bus, you don't get on the bus).

I just think it's absurd when people talk as if that's all of Israeli society. Either you're American, or you're rude and aggressive...

America's image isn't perfect. There's a perception for some that Americans are violent, they have guns, they eat ridiculous sugary foods, American cops are violent, etc. And there is a grain of truth to a lot of that (let's face it, deep-fried snickers could only have come from one country).

But it's so so far from the whole truth. If someone said, "I see why people move to America, but why try to be part of American society? Americans are so violent and unhealthy," it would be obvious to me that they don't know the first thing about America. Because anyone who does would know that there are many non-immigrant American communities where peace-loving health nuts would feel right at home.

There's a grain of truth to concern over Israeli pushiness and manners, but there are a ton of places here where good manners are the norm.

kerida

Sun, Nov 08 2015, 6:57 pm

I can understand both sides, intense desire to integrate and belong, yet the need to also live where your mother tongue is spoken all around, so making aliyah easier and less stressful. We can have strong idealistic values and yet appreciate our cultural baggage as we make a transition to a new country. Personally I know I would prefer to live in a place with a good mix of people, but having lots of Anglos around would give me more confidence and a sense of security. I am approaching 50 and so guess its a mix of old age and a desire to stay in my comfort zone when considering aliyah, not defending my desire to be close to other Anglos but explaining it.

However the idea of Israelis as rude, pushy and aggressive is over emphasised and affected by cultural stereotypes. I am British, we queue, say lots of please and thank yous and are always most polite to those we meet. On the train and bus we are taught to avoid conversation in general and never touch another human being ever or get overly involved with others.

We arranged to met our ds who was learning at an Israeli yeshiva at a busy bus station, we got the shock of our lives seeing him get off a packed bus, clutching a toddler and and a changing bag, before turning around to help a heavily pregnant mother with the rest of her lively belongings. In the Uk he barely spoke to anyone on public transport, in Israel, he explained such behaviour was the norm. We never ever forgot the sight of him with a little child in his arms, our ds had been until then a quintessential Englishman, polite and cool, helpful in that English way of holding a door open or giving up a seat, but whoa helping a bunch of little kids on a bus safely disembark, that was the Israeli part of him coming out.

Here in Uk a number of times we have seen Israeli workmen help my dh out, he is partly disabled and the care concern and good manners they have shown has always taken my breath away. Yes some Israelis are tough but do not confuse toughness with compassion and a good heart. In our civilised western world we tend to confuse superficial politeness with good middot, huge difference, give me compassion and warm heart any day.

Ruchel

Mon, Nov 09 2015, 7:29 am

My culture is in between Kerida's depiction of England, and what is written about Israel

Sanguine wrote:

My children call their friend's parents by their first name. HOW RUDE!! Or that's the Israeli informal way. Even the Rabbanim in Yeshiva are often called Rav Yaakov and not Rav Cohen.

An Israeli might insist on holding your baby while you settle your toddler on the bus. And might even offer that crying toddler a piece of their orange without consulting with you. (And they'll gang up and give you advice that you didn't ask for). They'll insist the driver turns the radio up for the hourly news and then erupt into an argument across the bus about the news items.

This would be pretty unbearable to me, the same way I'm sure I am unbearable to a very kalt, "English stereotype" or "Yekke stereotype". (I actually know I am lol).

Iymnok wrote:

The politeness feels superficial in the us. I know an Israeli who told her kids to say please, sorry or thank you to anyone they encounter and they'll be okay.
There is no Hebrew word for sorry. Slicha is for when you actually hurt someone. Mitztaer is when you feel so sorry it hurts you.
None for please either. Bevakasha is a request, Na is biblical and pleading, I usually use efshar which has a totally different meaning, but works more or less.

People here just seem more real to me. etiquette to me is so overrated and hides people.

To me it is the salt of Earth and a delight to be around. Not so much that it gets overwhelming as in the joke, "danke schön bitte schön" lol - but definitely NEED politeness and manners.

It is a choice to stay in a bubble or adapt... knowing the next generation will have to adapt if you didn't. It's all a choice. Don't go somewhere if you can't stand the local (culture).

June

Mon, Nov 09 2015, 9:55 am

Iymnok wrote:

It's pretty funny to hear my nephews, who are mostly Hebrew speaking, say "please tavi li...." to their mom.