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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> School age children
gittelchana
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Thu, Jan 28 2016, 8:33 pm
Tablepoetry wrote: | Halacha is one thing. Minhag is another. Sometimes there are more 'holy' considerations than tradition (and equality could, at times, be one of them).
Again - my words are not directed towards this specific instance, just a general observation. It is not always 'unholy' to try to change a minhag that may be hurtful in our cultural context. |
Hmm....
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amother
Vermilion
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Thu, Jan 28 2016, 10:21 pm
We are often in that situation on Shabbos, here. Usually one of the females over bas mitzvah makes kiddush (it's fun for my daughters, they often choose to). Occasionally we make kiddush over challah if no one is up for the wine-drinking. When we do have a guy over bar mitzvah around, he says it for us. But an 11 yr old cannot be yotze anyone. He can make his own kiddush (which many kids do every week).
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5mom
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Thu, Jan 28 2016, 11:42 pm
As others have said, a katan can never be motzi an adult, male or female.
A woman's chiyuv of kiddush on Friday night is deoraita, and if she has not davened maariv, her chiyyuv probably outranks that of her husband. We rely on candle lighting to act as maariv for her, but if she doesn't light for some reason, it might be preferable for her to say kiddush for him.
Kiddush on shabbos day, generally considered derabbanan, equally binding on men and women.
Havdala may be part of the mitzvah of kiddush, but it might also be a mitzvah of its own, in which case it's under the zman grama category, where males are obligated and women optional. That's why, all things being equal, men should be the ones making havdala. It's a myth that women should not make havdala at all. If there are no adult males around, a woman should make havdala and can be motzi herself and other women, as they all have the same level of obligation.
As a social matter, we tend to give men priority, but boys are not men.
Maybe while the op's husband is away, the family should study these halachos.
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gittelchana
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Thu, Jan 28 2016, 11:57 pm
5mom wrote: | , it might be preferable for her to say kiddush for him.
Maybe while the op's husband is away, the family should study these halachos. |
Chazal say - let a curse befall the one whose wife and children say the Brachos (Kiddush, Bentching etc) for him.
It's always a good idea to learn more Halachos.
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5mom
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:11 am
gittelchana wrote: | Chazal say - let a curse befall the one whose wife and children say the Brachos (Kiddush, Bentching etc) for him.
It's always a good idea to learn more Halachos. |
Yes, Chazal do say that (gemara in Brachos and Sukkah) but it doesn't change the halacha. They are saying that it's shameful for a man not to know how to make his own brachos. I imagine that we all agree.
Chazal did not say that women should not make their own brachos. If you eat a tuna sandwich, do you wait for your husband to come home to bentch for you? No, you fulfill your obligation, at whatever level.
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amother
Navy
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:21 am
amother wrote: | DH will be away for the next couple of shabbosim and when DS (who is 11) heard, his first question was " can I make kiddush?"
...
Oh, and for convenience sake, because it would make no difference to what I would want to do, let's pretend he's over bar mitzvah. |
I can't believe how many people are focusing on the halachic issues here as opposed to hashkafic. OP said TO PRETEND HE'S OVER BAR MITZVAH because she is much more upset over the male/female difference than the actual problems of him being a katan.
She doesn't want her daughter to think men are superior to women, or that a man's bracha is more valuable than a woman's.
She doesn't want her children to think that her son is more "valuable" in the home than she is, as the mother.
OP, you can absolutely tell your child that he will get to make kiddush/havdalah when he has his own family. Nothing wrong with that, and you will not be an "evil mother."
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5mom
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:32 am
amother wrote: |
I can't believe how many people are focusing on the halachic issues here as opposed to hashkafic. OP said TO PRETEND HE'S OVER BAR MITZVAH because she is much more upset over the male/female difference than the actual problems of him being a katan.
She doesn't want her daughter to think men are superior to women, or that a man's bracha is more valuable than a woman's.
She doesn't want her children to think that her son is more "valuable" in the home than she is, as the mother.
OP, you can absolutely tell your child that he will get to make kiddush/havdalah when he has his own family. Nothing wrong with that, and you will not be an "evil mother." |
I understood the " let's pretend " to mean, let's discuss this theoretically, not the specifics of this case.
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DrMom
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 3:21 am
I make kiddush myself when in a similar situation.
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5*Mom
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 3:40 am
amother wrote: |
I can't believe how many people are focusing on the halachic issues here as opposed to hashkafic. OP said TO PRETEND HE'S OVER BAR MITZVAH because she is much more upset over the male/female difference than the actual problems of him being a katan.
She doesn't want her daughter to think men are superior to women, or that a man's bracha is more valuable than a woman's.
She doesn't want her children to think that her son is more "valuable" in the home than she is, as the mother.
OP, you can absolutely tell your child that he will get to make kiddush/havdalah when he has his own family. Nothing wrong with that, and you will not be an "evil mother." |
I didn't read the whole thread, but in our home we respect gender differences and teach gender roles and my over bar mitzvah son would theoretically make havdalah if DH wasn't home and none of my children think that means that men are superior to women or that a man's bracha is more valuable than a woman's or that boys are more valuable in our home than their sisters or their mother. It's not always a good idea to project our own issues onto our children.
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imasinger
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 5:23 am
5mom wrote: | Yes, Chazal do say that (gemara in Brachos and Sukkah) but it doesn't change the halacha. They are saying that it's shameful for a man not to know how to make his own brachos. I imagine that we all agree.
Chazal did not say that women should not make their own brachos. If you eat a tuna sandwich, do you wait for your husband to come home to bentch for you? No, you fulfill your obligation, at whatever level. |
Exactly. Worth more than just a like.
Go for it, OP. For kiddush, it's not even a shaila. For havdala, AYLOR, but our family's practice is if DH is away, then I also do it. We would not bother our only Jewish neighbors, who are elderly, nor get in a car to go hear someone else make havdala. And DH would make his own.
BTW, men who are unmarried light their own Shabbos candles, too.
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heidi
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 5:24 am
Since a woman has an equal chiyuv as a man on Friday night, my daughter wanted to make kiddush once when my DH was away. Her brothers had a fit!!! I insisted bcz. I want them to understand that if it is halachically ok, there is no reason for her not to do it.
OP, you seem to feel that it is your role as head of the household to make kiddush and hamotzi if your DH is away. You are the mother and if it feels right to you, do it.
Personally, my newly Barmitzvaed boy is doing both this Shabbos bcz. DH is away and he is soooooo excited. I don't see it as usurping my role, but if you do, do what works for your family.
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chani8
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 6:03 am
We used to hold by gender roles, but then all kinds of changes happened and now my 16yo DS lights shobbos with the girls, and the girls often lead the zimun. DD made motzi at her sheva brachos and her charedi in laws accepted it. We are all equal opportunity here.
I quit going to shul because I cannot stand the mechitza. The last time I went to shul(had a mechitza), on simchas torah, the women said hakafos and the men responded, and I felt such joy. In the non-charedi world, gender separation is not going to hold up. The girls dont buy it anymore, not now with social media promoting equality.
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imasoftov
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 7:16 am
gittelchana wrote: | Chazal say - let a curse befall the one whose wife and children say the Brachos (Kiddush, Bentching etc) for him.
It's always a good idea to learn more Halachos. |
A lot of people don't have much food on their table
But they got a lot of forks n' knives
And they gotta cut somethin'
Bob Dylan
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Marion
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 7:19 am
All of us together...the boys get a kick out of being big enough to do it but I want to do my own.
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amother
Mustard
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 7:24 am
amother wrote: |
I can't believe how many people are focusing on the halachic issues here as opposed to hashkafic. OP said TO PRETEND HE'S OVER BAR MITZVAH because she is much more upset over the male/female difference than the actual problems of him being a katan.
She doesn't want her daughter to think men are superior to women, or that a man's bracha is more valuable than a woman's.
She doesn't want her children to think that her son is more "valuable" in the home than she is, as the mother.
OP, you can absolutely tell your child that he will get to make kiddush/havdalah when he has his own family. Nothing wrong with that, and you will not be an "evil mother." |
I'm OP and this post is spot on. I was not asking about halachos (which I believe I mentioned in a later post, I am familiar with).
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chani8
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 8:29 am
gittelchana wrote: | Chazal say - let a curse befall the one whose wife and children say the Brachos (Kiddush, Bentching etc) for him.
It's always a good idea to learn more Halachos. |
They would curse someone for that?
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amother
Mustard
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 8:30 am
Oh, and for everyone saying kiddush is for boys and candles for girls, basically across the board, that doesn't hold up...when the situation is reversed it doesn't work. When I'm away for shabbbos, DH lights the candles NOT my over bas mitzvah age daughter.
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amother
Lilac
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 9:09 am
I'm a single mom and I want to make sure my kids are clear about the parent-child roles so I insist on making kiddush for the family. In any case, my 8 year old son is too young to be motei everyone, but he enjoys making kiddush. I let him do it after I finish. Why not.
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pause
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 9:56 am
I just wanted to put it out there that if a woman is in need of havdalah and there is no male available, she can definitely make havdalah for herself. The shaila is if a woman can be motzi a man. I was always under the impression, and it seems like posters on this thread are perpetuating it too, that a woman does not make havdalah ever; it's a man's job.
I've had times where DH wasn't home until late after the zman and while technically I could have gone over to a neighbor, I was advised to just make for myself. If I'd have a son over bar mitzva who was home, the answer may have been different.
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youngishbear
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Fri, Jan 29 2016, 9:58 am
pause wrote: | I just wanted to put it out there that if a woman is in need of havdalah and there is no male available, she can definitely make havdalah for herself. The shaila is if a woman can be motzi a man. I was always under the impression, and it seems like posters on this thread are perpetuating it too, that a woman does not make havdalah ever; it's a man's job.
I've had times where DH wasn't home until late after the zman and while technically I could have gone over to a neighbor, I was advised to just make for myself. If I'd have a son over bar mitzva who was home, the answer may have been different. |
Did you grow a beard yet?...
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