the real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY

amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 11:32 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for your suggestion.

Googling is a way of getting info, but I'm always hesitant to google about Torah ways and matters, b/c I don't know the authenticity and hashkafos of the usually numerous places listed from where to get one's info.

I also know for a fact that many missionary movements post on Google wearing the "costume" of authentic Jews. r'l.

Wikipedia is a reasonable source - and happens to have a lengthy discussion.

As articulated by Rabbi Lamm

Torah, faith, religious learning on one side and Madda, science, worldly knowledge on the other, together offer us a more over-arching and truer vision than either one set alone. Each set gives one view of the Creator as well as of His creation, and the other a different perspective that may not agree at all with the first ... Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the possibility of a larger truth."

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:12 am

Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the possibility of a larger truth."

UMM to say that the Torah is only partially true is KEFIRAH. The moderator should erase that post.

I find it hard to believe that Norman Lamm would write that....

amother

Slategray

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:23 am

amother wrote:

Have you read his book - Torah Umadda?

He is saying the 'truth' of this universe is not wholly contained in the Torah, nor is it wholly contained outside of Torah.

dancingqueen

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 12:40 am

amother wrote:

Why is everyone amother? He is not saying Torah is partially true, rather that secular knowledge adds a lot to our understanding of the world that we wouldn't get from learning Torah alone.

amother

Ivory

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 3:31 am

I haven't read this whole thread, but wanted to point out that there was a teacher's college for women in Telshe, which, I believe, was established independently of the Bais Yaakov movement. According to Wikipedia this was established in 1930.

Iymnok

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 5:50 am

She didn't have a monopoly on teaching women. She didn't want that. She saw a gaping hole in our mesorah and seeked to mend it.
She wanted everyone to have a good relationship with Hashem and his torah.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 8:42 am

amother wrote:

"PinkFridge," I always enjoy and am very interested in reading your posts.

But, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about here and what the words you use, mean.

Kindly explain -

ty.

Sorry. Torah IM Derech Eretz vs. Torah UMada.
Torah WITH Derech Eretz, IOW the Torah is dominant, the DE in service to it.
Vs. Torah AND Mada, which implies an equivanlence in importance.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 9:39 am

Why is everyone amother? He is not saying Torah is partially true, rather that secular knowledge adds a lot to our understanding of the world that we wouldn't get from learning Torah alone.

I'm amother because this forum has the option to be that

"Partially True" was part of the quote attributed to Norman Lamm, I find it difficult to believe he would use those words as they are not the same as what you just said.

Certainly the Torah contains all knowledge, but there is chochma by the secular world as well and where it helps us understand things we otherwise don't, its appropriate.

BUT the Torah is always completely true. To say otherwise is not okay

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

Yes, I posted about this earlier.

And to add, Germany already had schools/education for girls, before the BY movement began in Poland.

CDL

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

What is Torah u'madah?

ty

I believe it's the official hashkafah of modern orthodoxy. (Specifically Yeshiva University, and Rav YB soloveitchik ). It's about the relationship between Torah and the secular world / secular knowledge. Which is why it's often confused with Torah Im derech eretz, since although different, they are both about the same concepts.
For comparison sake the chareidi mentality, if there was a name for it, would be called either Torah u'torah, or Torah im Torah.

imasoftov

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 10:37 am

CDL wrote:

I believe it's the official hashkafah of modern orthodoxy. (Specifically Yeshiva University, and Rav YB soloveitchik ).

It's the motto and on the seal of Yeshiva University, and it's a prevalent hashkafa in MO, but I don't think MO has an official anything.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

A response to a critical review of Torah Ummadah
http://download.yutorah.org/19.....5.pdf (page 8)

Torah, faith, religious learning on one side, and madda, science, worldly
knowledge on the other, together offer us a more overarching and truer vision
than either set alone. Each set gives one view of the Creator as well as His
Creation, and the other a different perspective that may not at all agree with the
first. . . . Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the possibility
of a larger truth. . . . (p. 29).

The foregoing paragraph evoked fiery criticism from some readers of Torah
Umadda. Perhaps the most bothersome phrase is, "Each alone is true, but only
partially true." This seems to run counter to many statements of Hazal who see
all wisdom as being present in the Torah. Although this is, of course, true on
a deeper mystical level, nonetheless, as far as we perceive things with our thisworldly
understanding, there is knowledge that is not in the Torah. Accordingly,
although Dr. Lamm's choice of words might be seen as lacking in traditional
reverence, he was merely stating the truth as we perceive it. To illustrate, the
wisdom of plumbing is not readily available in the Torah, nor is a detailed
analysis of chemistry. Conceivably, extraordinarily holy mystics may be able, by
penetrating beyond the Torah's outer garment, to find these forms of knowledge
within it. Surely, though, neither Rabbi Rosenblum nor anyone else would
encourage budding plumbers or chemists to seek knowledge of their field via the
Torah.

Thus, the phrase "partially true" refers not to any (God forbid) falsity in the
Torah, but to the fact that for the average man Torah truth is limited to that
which the texts themselves reveal. Going one step further, let us cite the example
of medicine, whether physical or mental. There, too, all Jews turn to secular
wisdom in order to supplement the picture of the world offered by the Torah. In
order to cure everything from heart attacks to neuroses, we reach out to those
other truths. Thus, as Dr. Lamm writes, "both together present the possibility of
a larger truth" (pp. 4647).

Nonetheless, it does seem that Dr. Lamm could have found a clearer phrase
to express his point. Torah is not "partially true". It may present us with a partial
picture of all that is true, but it remains totally true. However, as we turn to Dr.
Lamm's approach to apparent conflicts between Torah and madda, it will
become clear why he chose wording capable of being misunderstood.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 11:41 am

CDL wrote:

I've heard the term Torah l'chud.