Derech Eretz??? | Imamother

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Derech Eretz???

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amother

Maroon

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 2:54 pm

What happened to derech Eretz and common decency in this generation of kids?

pesek zman

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 2:56 pm

You're a bit vague. Care to elaborate

amother

Coral

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:02 pm

What happened in the chassidish world is that the schools are so busy adding more & more school rules that they're forgetting about the main thing, derech eretz & middos tovos!

amother

Ecru

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:02 pm

it needs to be taught. My dh just gave me a lecture recently how I can't let the kids get away with chutzpa. If I say something they have to listen.... He had a point and we've been working on it and I do see an improvement.

mha3484

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:08 pm

Sorry Coral amother, it comes from home the schools are not to blame. I teach my kids to say please, thank you and to be considerate of others from the age that they can talk. I model being polite to everyone who we see. Its one of the things I value the most so my kids know that its not optional in our family.

I have a kid with a lot of issues but he still has good manners because its extremely important to me. heck he was saying please and thank you at our intake meeting for a therapeutic school this week. I feel like its all about teaching good habits from a young age.

pause

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:46 pm

I won't say it's only the home, but it's mainly the home.

If you acct and speak respectfully to your kids and to others in their presence and demand the same respect back, usually they will act the same way.

Also, it is VERY important to be specific and clarify which behaviors you want to see and which ones are unacceptable. You can't just say "chutzpah" or "derech eretz" and expect compliance without clearly delineating what the definitions of those terms are.

mha3484

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:48 pm

I agree. Sometimes we ask our kids to do something that is too much for them so they respond with a rude comment. I have fallen into this trap with one of my kids many times. You have to make sure your expectations are reasonable before using the chutzpah label.

amother

Coral

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 3:49 pm

It comes from home & school. Kids spend most of their day in school, if they don't stress on good middos than it can undo everything taught at home.
The cheders that are the biggest in Torah are the biggest in chutzpah.

flowerpower

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 4:09 pm

It mainly comes from the home. Chutzpa in my house is NOT tolerated starting from the day they are born. I don’t care what is/isn’t taught in school.

enjoying kids

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 4:14 pm

I disagree that it all comes from the home. I work as a professional in several schools and some of the very yeshivish schools have a much looser culture regarding derech eretz. For example, as I walk down the hall (during recess), boys will "cat call" -- e.g. "hey, lady, what are you doing here?"
A parent from that school, who in my opinion has excellent parenting skills and a well run home, told me that the school's philosophy is to focus on the learning let kids act like kids, and they will mature out of it -- I guess along the lines of "the light of Torah returning them to the good"

SixOfWands

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 4:27 pm

amother wrote:

What happened to derech Eretz and common decency in this generation of kids?

That's the question that is asked in every generation.

I doubt today's kids are any worse than the last generation, or the one before.

thunderstorm

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 5:17 pm

amother wrote:

What happened in the chassidish world is that the schools are so busy adding more & more school rules that they're forgetting about the main thing, derech eretz & middos tovos!

It's not specifically a Chasidish problem. This is a universal problem.

thunderstorm

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 5:29 pm

Kids model adults. Unfortunately it is clear that in today's day and age basic Derech Eretz is not a given. The fact that adults look down at one another, talk down to one another, disrespect many rabbanim, disrespect another group for their minhagim, disrespect the president of their country , spouses disrespect each other in front of the children, Adult married children disrespect their parents or inlaws, when very frum neighbors treat their not so frum neighbor as second class etc. , the kids absorb what they see and pick up on that .

We are not in control of the way our schools teach and encourage Derech Eretz, but we are in control of our own actions . Derech Eretz starts being taught when your kids are babies. Some kids have better behavior than others. But Derech Eretz needs to be imbued in the from a young age. There should be a zero tolerance policy for chutzpah and we need to work on ourselves as well to be better role models.

amother

Coral

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 5:39 pm

Well said thunderstorm Thumbs Up

amother

Maroon

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 5:42 pm

I’m talking more about how a lot of kids these days speak to their parents and totally disregard rules or requests.

pause

Fri, Sep 14 2018, 6:07 pm

amother wrote:

I’m talking more about how a lot of kids these days speak to their parents and totally disregard rules or requests.

Two points -

1. When my child expresses themselves to me, I am happy they feel comfortable enough and close enough to me to speak their mind. I know I wouldn't dare say certain things to my parents and that led to a certain kind of relationship whereas, I am glad to say, I have a different kind of relationship with my kids, more in line with 2018. So when my child will freely express their annoyance in a way that shows s/he is not afraid of me, I take it as a sign of openness and closeness.

Depending on the context, I will either ignore the way it was said and only address the content, or I will re-state their comment in a more respectful way. But there's that flash of satisfaction that our relationship allows for such expression.

2. You sound upset about the way kids talk to parents. However, there's a flip side here as well. Do parents today conduct themselves the same way their parents did? My grandparents commanded respect; they didn't demand it. It was seen in the way they acted and behaved. The way they ate, sat, spoke, and dressed in the privacy of their homes. Do today's parents behave similarly that they expect similar respect??? Yeridas hadoros is universal.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Sep 15 2018, 3:41 pm

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”― Socrates

Never has youth been exposed to such dangers of both perversion and arrest as in our own land and day. Increasing urban life with its temptations, prematurities, sedentary occupations, and passive stimuli just when an active life is most needed, early emancipation and a lessening sense for both duty and discipline, the haste to know and do all befitting man's estate before its time, the mad rush for sudden wealth and the reckless fashions set by its gilded youth--all these lack some of the regulatives they still have in older lands with more conservative conditions. ~ Granville Stanley Hall, 1904

And then there's this one:
A mendacious umbrella is a sign of great moral degradation. Hypocrisy naturally shelters itself below a silk; while the fast youth goes to visit his religious friends armed with the decent and reputable gingham. May it not be said of the bearers of these inappropriate umbrellas that they go about the streets "with a lie in their right hand"? ~ Robert Louis Stevenson, 1894

I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such... ~Robert Russel, 1695

...a fearful multitude of untutored savages... [boys] with dogs at their heels and other evidence of dissolute habits...[girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody...the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly.~ Anthony Ashley Cooper, the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, 1843

And finally I give you this:

In Book III of Odes, circa 20 BC, Horace wrote:

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more
worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more
corrupt.

Ruchel

Sat, Sep 15 2018, 4:51 pm

OH yes, the adults who trashed the Uman plane alll went the charedi cheder, they're so not mostly BTs... (or FTBs etc).
The horrible kids in Elal are all charedi LOL

Just no. So no. Despite having larger families the charedi generally aren't the demographics I fear in vacation.

Rappel

Sat, Sep 15 2018, 7:15 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Thank you for this! XD

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