S/o acceptance of authority

amother

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:17 am

The thread about school success and success in life got me thinking about a question that I've wondered about for a while.

Several posters on that thread have touted obedience to authority as a negative that does not lead to success in life (or at least in career).

At the same time, school is predicated upon obedience, no? The kids who get along well in school are the ones who follow the rules.

And even in adulthood, if you have a job and don't follow authority, where does that get you? If you don't follow the law, where does it get you? If you don't submit your will to the Torah's, where does that get you religiously?

What is the balance of acceptance of authority vs. challenging authority?

For context, I was always known as a rule follower. I excelled in school. Yet, I broke every rule I could get away with. I skipped every single assembly when I was in 11th grade and slept late. No one noticed. I used the halo effect to my full advantage. I cut class at the end of 12th grade, but the teacher didn't mark me absent because she thought that there was no way I would cut. I built up my reputation and then capitalized on it. Some would say that simply makes me lazy and arrogant, no?

As an employee, I can be quite challenging if I think I'm being taken advantage of or if I think the rules are foolish. My outspokenness can get me in trouble at times, but perhaps it's just because I'm willing to speak up when others blindly follow? Is that a bad thing?

amother

Firebrick

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:22 am

I was a more or less, obedient, docile lamb in school and valedictorian.

Things didn't change much in college or grad school.

Starting around age 30....I've increasingly become more rebellious and questioning, although I'm a generally compliant person and value rule following. My thinking has become less black and white on many things as well, and I focus more on principles than on specifics. I'm 40 now.

I will accept authority still. But I'm more discerning of who I view as having authority over me and to what extent.

amother

Magenta

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 9:55 pm

I was a real goody-goody in school.
Still am a very law-abiding citizen, even when laws make no sense - I would never jaywalk, even at 2 AM on a deserted street.

But even as I listen to 99% percent of the rules, I will passionately argue against the ones I disagree with.

(I also grew up with a strong fear of God, or rather hell, drilled into me from a young age. So there's a subtext of "you better follow the rules or else" that kind of keeps me in line, but its not loud enough to prevent me from vocally disagreeing.)

I can't say that being a rule-follower held me back from anything in life, but my ideas of what to do in life may have been limited by knowing that I needed to follow a certain framework. I'm happy with my life, though, if that's the real question you're getting at.

zaq

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 5:51 pm

In this, as in all things, balance is the key. You simply don't see many meek, mild and utterly obedient people rocket to fame and success--not even in the sphere of religion. To succeed in the sense that the word is used socially, meaning to make a mark on the world, a person needs, among other traits, focus, determination, and persistence. These seldom align well with being meek and obedient, because to make a mark you have to disturb the status quo and fight for what you believe in. Meek and obedient people don't do this; strong-headed people do. OTOH if you're TOO strong-headed and refuse to submit to ANY authority, you may get very good at what you do--say, stealing cars or bankrupting your rivals-- and still not become what society at large would call a "success." Or you could grow up to be a silk-suited, red-tied hoodlum whom a certain portion of society calls a "success," strong-arm your way into the presidency of the United States and refuse to concede defeat a month after a failed bid for re-election.

Consider the Dalai Lama, who gives every impression of being meek and mild. Mild he may be, but meek? Not so much. You can't be the leader of 8-1/2 million followers by doing everything you're told and never pushing back.