How do deal with child & unknowingly non-jewish grandma

amother

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 10:29 am

I'm one of the many converts who was born to a jewish father and a "convert" mother (who actually didn't have a proper halachic conversion), spent grew up thinking she was jewish until being exposed to ortho judaism and the kiruv stuff as a young adult, was told as a young adult she wasn't actually jewish, and did a proper halachic conversion. (fyi for those types who arent exposed to a lot of BTs: this is a quite common conversion story.)

my parents have no clue that: 1) my mom isn't considered jewish by the orthodox and that her conversion is invalid, and 2) that I spent 2-3 yrs undergoing an extremely invasive and intense conversion process to become jewish. my mom would be offended if she knew either of these facts.

now we have an infant, and my mom will be around the baby a lot for helping with child care. any suggestions for how do deal with various issues that will come up? baby is too young now to start asking questions, but there's going to be halachic things that come up I'd imagine (like cooking).

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 10:40 am

I think you should sit down with a rabbi you trust and have a long open conversation about the sorta of issues that can come up, what halachic leniencies are available to you, and what practical workarounds exist for avoiding any direct confrontation of your mother's status. It should be a rabbi who is very familiar with BTs and dealing with non-frum and non-Jewish relatives.

Cooking, for example, is usually an issue for halachically Jewish relatives too if they don't keep kosher themselves. We don't let our Jewish non-frum relatives cook in our home unless one of us is there to oversee them personally in the kitchen.

Rappel

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 11:27 am

As a daughter in law of a similar family set-up, here is what I found works for me.

1. It is completely normal for women to feel territorial over their kitchens, even within families. Without bringing any religion into it, you can tell your mom that you feel comfortable if only you work in the kitchen. Give her the job of baby care while you cook/wash dishes. This takes out 90 percent of the issues.

If you ever are cooking with your mum, then if you're Ashkenazi, you need to be nominally involved (salt the food, turn on the flame), and if you're Sefardi then you need to do most of the work - which, btw, can include putting the pot on the flame and your mom not touching it until it's more than halfway cooked.

2) do not keep any non-mevushal wine in the home. It's not worth the stress. If you guys are wine enthusiasts, then know that most fancy wine labels have mevushal versions of their wines which don't have a taste effect. [Almost funny story: DH had bought me a REALLY nice bottle of wine for my birthday, hundreds of shekels, my absolute favourite, but I didn't open it yet because my MIL was coming to visit. She did a good job cleaning the house, and wanted to reward herself. She rummaged around, found my birthday bottle, opened it, and had just a shot glass of it to taste. It was torture, but I poured it into the sink when she was in the bathroom and told her that the cat knocked it over. I couldn't believe G-d tested me that way.]

3. Serving challah is actually much simpler for your mom than for your dad because she isn't Jewish, but most rabbanim give a heter of some kind if you're serving bread at a general table and one Jew chooses not to wash.

4. With this set-up, there is no reason your children should ever have to know that your mother isn't Jewish. If they or she ever discover the fact, then the years you have treated your mother with love and respect will stand you in good stead.

Last edited by Rappel on Wed, Dec 16 2020, 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total

Elfrida

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 11:31 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Cooking, for example, is usually an issue for halachically Jewish relatives too if they don't keep kosher themselves. We don't let our Jewish non-frum relatives cook in our home unless one of us is there to oversee them personally in the kitchen.

Kashrut is an issue with relatives who aren't frum. When they aren't Jewish, you e got the whole extra layer of bishul akum to deal with. It gets even more complicated.

Agree that the OP needs to have close guidance from a Rav who is familiar with these situations. If the situation is relatively common, as you describe, it might be worth getting back to one of the Rabbanim or teachers who helped you during conversion. They probably have experience helping people through similar situations.

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 11:46 am

Elfrida wrote:

Kashrut is an issue with relatives who aren't frum. When they aren't Jewish, you e got the whole extra layer of bishul akum to deal with. It gets even more complicated.

Yes I know about bishul akum. But my point is that you can tell a relative not to cook in your kitchen without confronting the Jewish/non-Jewish question head on and without treating her differently from the halachically Jewish relatives. Nobody non-frum will be allowed to cook in OP's kitchen, the end.

Avoiding the question of OP's mother's status may require sometimes being a little stricter than absolutely necessary with the Jewish relatives.

amother

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 1:41 pm

Rappel wrote:

3. Serving challah is actually much simpler for your mom than for your dad because she isn't Jewish, but most rabbanim give a heter of some kind if you're serving bread at a general table and one Jew chooses not to wash.

I'm confused. What's the issue here with the washing/challah? My parents -- as do my non-frum in-laws -- all go through the "charade" of washing and repeating the bracha and not talking before challah when they eat with us, even though they don't fully get it or think it's slightly annoying or weird. It's more of a "when in Rome..." thing. Is there a problem with having my mom essentially do "fake mitzvot" and say a bracha?

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 2:52 pm

Elfrida wrote:

While that's not untrue, I do know some BT friends with halachically Jewish parents who are not shomer shabbos--but they are shomer kashrut, they did ask a shailah with the particulars of their situation, and they did not have to treat their food as bishul akum. Obviously one should AYLOR, but I think there are kulos that can be applied in some situations.

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 2:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Of course AYLOR, but I think one is not obligated to stop a non jew from washing for bread/saying the brachah. This can apply to other rituals/blessings too. It may affect which brachos one can say amein to.

Elfrida

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 3:11 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Right, but in this case, the OP's mother is not halachically Jewish, so it would be hard to apply a kulah.

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 3:18 pm

Elfrida wrote:

Right, but in this case, the OP's mother is not halachically Jewish, so it would be hard to apply a kulah.

I hear....I'm saying that there just may be more kulos overall than one might expect so it's worth discussing.

Also, it's important to learn what is really an issue with bishul and what isn't. Some common situations may not be an issue of bishul akum at all without a kulo even with a non jew.

Also, I don't know OPs situation, but I have a friend with a similar situation (mom's conversion wasn't considered acceptable by the BD when he asked a shaila while becoming frum, and he had to convert). In his situation, the situation with his mom was a safek. So, basically since he asked BD, he was basically in a position where they couldn't say he wasn't Jewish, but they couldn't say he was--and he had to keep all private mitzvos (had to put on tefillin, keep kosher, etc.) but could not keep public things (ie. be counted in a minyan, get married if he wanted to). It could affect some things if the mother's status is more of a safek.

Rappel

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 8:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No no, you're fine! I was referring to something else:

There is a halacha issue with serving bread to a Jew whom doesn't wash/say hamotzi, because it is such an important food. A non-Jew has no such restraint. But since your family is willing to do the dance, you're all in the clear.

[Btw, if you ever do host someone who point-blank refuses to wash, then there is room for you to say that you're making motzei for the whole table, serve the bread in a general basket, and then you're not responsible if they choose to take. Not preferable, but we do what we have to do sometimes.]

amother

Gold

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 9:33 pm

If Op puts on the flame etc...how will her mother know its because she isnt relig versus not jewish? Is op's mother so well versed in kashrus to think dd would "let her loose" in the kitchen. Plenty people let their hired help cook while doing bare minimum to ensure kashrus.

But Op, I agree in getting an appointment with a Rav well versed in this situation to guide you.