Do you think cleaning help is a luxury? Poll

amother

Copper

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:20 pm

amother Tanzanite wrote:

A plumber has specialized knowledge and know how. It's also very easy for a nontrained DIY person to make a big error while attempting to do a repair that ends up being a much more costly fix then if a trained person had dealt with it in the first place. This does not apply to cleaning help.

And not for the first time imamother goes to ridiculous examples in order to "score" points.

Plumbing and electrical work is skilled labor. Not everyone has the ability to do it. Most people hire a plumber because they want the expertise of a plumber or electrician.

Cleaning is not skilled labor. Most people find it tedious and it can be unpleasant but it is not "skilled" as anyone can do it with simple instructions - I.e. there is a better way of cleaning a toilet but not hard to learn how to do it well. Laundry is also something that is relatively easy for anyone to learn how to do.

Painting is semi-skilled. It is time consuming to do it well but not difficult to read how to prep and paint. And purchasing appropriate brushes and pans helps the process. However if you can afford it many people would choose to outsource it because it can time consuming to do the job well and some people might not want to have their house in disorder because of how long it takes to DIY versus hiring a painter.

Even people who claim they lack "executive function" can clean if they are motivated to learn a system that keeps them organized and on-track. While flylady is a bit rigid she does provide a theoretical basis for how to clean a house by creating a check list and rotating what is deep cleaned every week - just an example.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:43 pm

amother Copper wrote:

I am not "imamother". I am a real person and if you don't like the examples I used, you can use other ones. You can learn to sew your own clothes. It's really not that hard. You can raise your own chickens/eggs and learn how to shecht.

amother Copper wrote:

Cleaning is not skilled labor. Most people find it tedious and it can be unpleasant but it is not "skilled" as anyone can do it with simple instructions - I.e. there is a better way of cleaning a toilet but not hard to learn how to do it well. Laundry is also something that is relatively easy for anyone to learn how to do.

All the more reason to outsource it. It's easy to find someone to do this for a relatively low salary.... theoretically, if Mrs. A makes $50 an hour and she pays her cleaning help $20 an hour, she's coming out ahead if she outsources this part of her life.

amother Copper wrote:

Painting is semi-skilled. It is time consuming to do it well but not difficult to read how to prep and paint. And purchasing appropriate brushes and pans helps the process. However if you can afford it many people would choose to outsource it because it can time consuming to do the job well and some people might not want to have their house in disorder because of how long it takes to DIY versus hiring a painter.

I am talking about the case of someone who is, as you say, "somewhat skilled". They may choose to outsource this (and it's not cheap!) because it can be a huge hassle....

amother Copper wrote:

Even people who claim they lack "executive function" can clean if they are motivated to learn a system that keeps them organized and on-track. While flylady is a bit rigid she does provide a theoretical basis for how to clean a house by creating a check list and rotating what is deep cleaned every week - just an example.

There are only so many hours in the day. You don't need to have executive function issues in order to not be able to multi task the thousand and one things that a typical mother of a large family needs to be doing at once.

And I don't know why you put "executive function" in quotes. Do you think it's made up?

amother

Tanzanite

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

That was just one example, but yes, I have very talented people in my family who can do it themselves. They outsource it anyway.

What about sewing? Anyone can learn to sew their own clothes. Do you buy flaky dough? You can make it yourself. You can grow your own vegetables. There are a million places that you can do it yourself and not outsource it.... and generally, people I know don't.

And I actually do think that being able to keep your house clean, while working 30 hours a week (as an example, that's not my reality), while taking care of your children, cooking, shopping and everything else is definitely a specialized skill that not everyone has.

Most of these examples are not necessarily cost efficient. It's a lot cheaper to buy a cheap dress or top than buy material and a pattern etc. I know people who put A LOT of money into gardening (not because they rely on it for food but they enjoy it as a hobby) and most of their stuff gets eaten by wildlife so this is not necessarily a reliable or cheaper way to procure produce (this is a residential suburban area. Not much space for a garden in a city.) Etc.

And of course it's cheaper to do cooking from scratch...that's probably the easiest way to cut back, and if that is what it takes to pay for cleaning help, that's great. Problem is that some people still can't afford it, no matter what they cut back on, and that's when it becomes a luxury.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:53 pm

Also I'm thinking about when cleaning help is most useful. I don't think they're available at night when I'm wiped and don't want to clean up after supper.... So it waits until the morning.
Do they come back after cleaning the bathroom on Friday when by Shabbos afternoon it needs another cleaning?

Cleaning help is a nice reprieve but l'maisa without a full time live in, the inhabitants of the house must be doing some cleaning to maintain the level we consider a necessity at which point is hard to argue that they don't know how to because chances are they are doing some already.

I'm all for breaks and hacks and short cuts and delegation. But I feel society has compiled everyone else's separate needs into one big list and everyone is referring to that list in their own lives as musts now.

(Cleaning help on a regular basis, more bedrooms with fewer kids sharing, matching clothing, brand name stuff, babies in frum brands only, scheduled new backpacks again of a certain brand, regular takeout, shorter working hours, whatever... For some people, some things should be higher priority, but it's seeping into society that we need to take care of ourselves and not have our kids be nebachs and this is the list to achieve it, when maybe we should be able to think for ourselves and pick and choose our own priorities and methods of reaching what our family's values are.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:57 pm

I'm a mother of a large family ba"h. I work in an office 32 hours a week and frequently have work matters to deal with outside of office hours. I am also on the board of 2 non profits, one of which takes more time and one of which takes less. I have a few small freelancing projects I've taken on as the need arises. And I promise you, if I needed to, I could find more time to clean. How much time do I spend on this site that I don't need to be? 😜
I like relaxing but when I have to do work, I do. Similarly, if that work means I need to clean, I could find that time. My issue is mainly motivation as it doesn't seem like a concrete outcome by a certain deadline.

But if I can spot the time in my schedule, I venture to guess that's not the main sticking point preventing others from doing their own cleaning. Especially if they're probably already redoing a bathroom since the last time a cleaning lady was there...

LittleDucky

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 9:25 pm

I think the real definition of need vs luxury- should you get others to sponsor this item if you cannot afford it?
As a society, we sponsor food for people who cannot afford it. Tomchei Shabbos, food banks etc. This is true in the secular world too. We realize it is a need and if someone cannot afford it, we pitch in to help.
If someone cannot afford clothing- we have second hand shops, free giveaways etc.
I know of people who collected rent etc for someone who couldn't afford.

We don't collect money so someone can go to Aspen or the Bahamas.

Now- where does cleaning help come in? Should you get tzeddakah to pay for your cleaning help? A tuition reduction? That's tzeddakah too. Can someone collect Tomchei Shabbos just to be able to cover their cleaning lady? (Ie if they took the charity they could have a cleaning lady).