Don't we all need Group therapy every Parshas Bereishis?

amother

Ultramarine

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 12:49 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

She got 2 but they can be put together as 1.
1. subservience to her husband
2. painful child bearing

Although a woman suffers tremendous pain while birthing children, she has such a strong desire for
s-x and marriage that she doesn't stop it although it's painful.
That's how the man rules over the woman

huh? how so?

amother

Bronze

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 1:47 pm

This is an oversimplification.
I teach a class on Chava.
The role of women is a lot more nuanced than your elementary school education would have you think.
Each of Chava's "curses" is a tool to help her achieve hisbatlus and thus tikkun.
Note how the passuk doesn't use the word curse in reference to the Chava's consequences. In fact, when Hashem speaks to Chava, the passuk says "el haIsha amar"- amira is gentle. Hashem speaks to Chava softly as he outlines her new circumstances. It's obviously not a curse.

Giraffe

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 1:52 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

Much like how Christianity affected our views of Gehinnom (no it is not a lava filled place with little demons), they really affected the view of Adam and Chava in popular culture.

amother

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 6:42 pm

amother Obsidian wrote:

Honest question- do you all still want kids despite all the hardships raised in this thread? I'm struggling so hard to want kids, but then I think about the pain you're all talking about, and I really don't want that!

Yes. A thousand times yes! Firstly, the collective varieties of pain don't all fall upon one person. Everyone gets their bit (or bits), and it always seems completely impossible and horrific when it's not the pain you know intimately as your own.

And nowhere is the term 'no pain, no gain' truer than with having kids. Being and becoming a mother is hard, oh yes. It is also rewarding and beautiful beyond measure. The struggles that come along with it are not welcome perhaps, but they develop you into a better, more sensitive and gracious person. And beautiful moments of connection and nachas from your kids are absolutely priceless.

Perhaps make a poll so that others can chime in with their feelings.

amother

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 6:48 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

I honestly did not think otherwise. Something as huge and far reaching as this 'curse' in our holy and mystical Torah is of course layered with Divine wisdom and deep and broad meaning.

This was a light hearted post in the entertainment forum seeking to give and receive validation.

Giraffe

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 7:04 pm

Rabbi Manis Friedman's shiur has the most positive interpretation of this story I can think of.

Basically Hashem wanted Adam and Chava to work on the lowest world.
Chava when listening to the snake realized Gan Haeden was not the lowest world.
She was not a stupid, gullible idiot and/or an evil temptress that wanted to be rebellious because she thought she would be as wise as Hashem like Christians like to interpret her as.
She convinced Adam to eat the fruit to be brought to the lowest world to work on it.
Hashem was not upset at them at all.
When He said "you will surely die" Hashem really wanted them to go to the lowest world but also did not want to hurt them. So He wanted them to give their consent to go to the world lower than Gan Haeden.
Cheit does not mean "sin" in this context. It means "downgrade." They demoted themselves.
Hashem then told them how the lower world will work with the so called curses. He never punished them.

Rabbi Manis Friedman has another shiur as well:
Chava and Adam has a discussion if being a perfect Tzaddik was the way to go or if it was worth it to have the temptation to sin to be able to overcome and get merits as well as the possibility of Teshuva if sin was unfortunately done which will then give humanity the possibility to be even higher than the perfect tzaddik. Adam got convinced by Chava's argument. There are tons of commentaries that say because of the cheit the world will be on a higher level when Moshiach comes then if the cheit was never done in the first place. So it was not like we were put in a pit to dig out of and to get back where we started. There was a point to all this pain.

His shiurs can be found on Youtube and are about 20 minutes each.

zaq

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 9:02 pm

amother Crimson wrote:

Im sorry but that is not what I learned the curse was.
It was having painful childbirth.
Why would a teacher make up something else?

Because telling eight-year-olds about how painful childbirth is, is inappropriate. And telling eight-year-olds that they are going to go through this kind of suffering because of someone else's actions is equally age-inappropriate.

amother

PlumPink

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 9:07 pm

No, I don't. I need a tranquilizer every time I'm in shul early enough to hear "shelo asani ishah." I can deal with a curse in the Good Book. There are many of them. I can NOT deal with being figuratively slapped in the face by an entire congregation of men praising G-d for not having made them me.

And please, spare me the apologetics. There's not an excuse, a reason or an interpretation that I haven't already heard, here or elsewhere, many times over. I didn't buy it before and I won't buy it now, so save your bandwidth.

amother

PlumPink

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 10:37 pm

BH Yom Yom wrote:

Personally, I blame the nachash for talking/pressuring Chava into eating the fruit, and Adam for not clarifying that touching the eitz hadaas was not assur from Hashem but rather a geder he added on.

What is your source for Adam being the one who got all farfrumt and not Chava who decided to go all machmir?

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 10:43 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

The brachos were made by men. That's all there is to it. If we would have made them we probably would've done the same.

zaq

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 10:46 pm

Think about it, people. Could humankind really have continued living forever in blissful ignorance in the Garden of Eden? What would have been the point?

I think G-d always intended to grant them this knowledge eventually, if not through eating the fruit then through another means. Maybe after teaching them how to make applesauce, so they'd acquire their knowledge of good and evil gradually. But they short-circuited the process.

amother

PlumPink

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 10:53 pm

amother Tangerine wrote:

The brachos were made by men. That's all there is to it. If we would have made them we probably would've done the same.

What, we would have written a blessing " shelo asani gever" ? I think not. Women as a group tend to be protective of the "fragile" male ego. I think we would have made a blessing thanking G-d for making us human beings, for making us intelligent, and for giving us the gift of speech.

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Oct 18 2023, 11:14 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

Yes but we would also make one bracha thanking Hashem for being able to have kids. As it is us as a group daven more than men. Imagine they wouldn't have that ego booster they'd never daven!