WWYW - kids at your wedding - specific situation

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Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette

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View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Read thread before voting - which option?

Mom should bring both kids to the wedding, the kallah wants her there.

[ 6 ]

Mom should sadly miss this wedding. The kallah clearly prefers she not attend. She knows the mom’s situation.

96%

[ 154 ]

Total Votes : 160

mirror

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:00 pm

I am missing something. If you know the mom will bring the kids, then why invite her in the first place? Why can't you say something to the effect of, "We have a very tight budget and I'm truly sorry but I have to limit how many friends I can invite."

lamplighter

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:03 pm

Doesn't sound like this mentee listens to you.

What do you mentor her on?

My personal opinion: either invite both kids or invite none. Inviting one is asking for trouble especially with people who struggle with boundaries.

amother

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:07 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

I think it needs to come from the Kallah or the Kallahs family, that while they would love to have the mother there, kids aren't invited to this wedding, and if she can't arrange a babysitter then they will be sorry to miss her at the wedding, but this wedding is not for children.

Assuming that you are invited to this wedding as a regular guest(ie not the Kallah herself or close family), can you be the gatekeeper for her? Like if she comes with both kids in tow can you be like "oh I'm sure the Kallah will be so happy to see you! Let me stay outside with your kids so that you can run in and say Mazal Tov. I know that the family will be thrilled to see you but this wedding is really not the place for children."

No, I don’t know this kallah (I actually know her ex!).

amother

Amber

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:08 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Agree with this.
But, since it's too late, my advice is for you to offer to sponsor a pizza or other fast food take out dinner for the kids while they stay with the babysitter you have recommended. If it's coming from her mentor, she will see it as a nice treat, and since you suspect the food/meal is her motivation to take them, that takes off the pressure. It sounds like that would be a big treat for the kids, that will make it exciting to stay home.

amother

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:10 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Mentor does not = parent or dictator. She comes to me for divorce, dating, parenting, chinuch, etc. and I do my best.

lavenderchimes

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:10 pm

How close a friend is it? For a close friend, I would rather have a disaster, but I would ALSO try to hire a babysitter to come TO the wedding to help with the kids. For not a close friend ... tbh, it sounds like she's attending with both kids regardless, so the kallah can either accept the disaster and roll with it or hire help herself to try to mitigate.

amother

Rose

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 5:27 pm

It's quite normal to restrict ages on children invited. Unless they're siblings of the chosson/kallah or possible nieces/nephews (unless there's too many), often people are asked not to bring children under x age. This is usually around 10yo, but can be slightly younger or older, depending on circumstances.
If I'm invited to a wedding, I take it for granted that my children aren't invited unless specifically stated.
It's a pity that this mother isn't in the right place to accept the help that is offered. But you can't make the decisions for her. You can advise, and you can be supportive, but at the end of the day, she is free to make her own choices, however poor they may be.

amother

Catmint

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 9:12 pm

You invite either all children in a family or none. To invite one child and not the other is beyond rude, and I think you know this. Whether or not the mom accepts an invitation extended to her alone is not your problem. She may not come at all if she can't afford a sitter--but inviting only one child wouldn't solve that problem because she would need a sitter for the child with special needs anyway. So the bottom line is, it's up to you to decide whether to invite the mom with both kids and endure the resulting chaos, or invite her alone without the kids, understanding that she is unlikely to attend. Or may bring the kids anyway, given that she is socially off. Hey, I've known neurotypical people to bring uninvited kids to a simcha, so what makes you think this mom would heed your "just you, no kids" invitation?

You do have a possible third option, which is to hire someone to look after both kids in a separate room at the simcha. But if the kid with special needs is such a handful, you can't just hire some fourteen-year-old to look after him or her. if it means that much to you to have the mom present, offer to pay for a trained caregiver--if the child has special needs, there are probably a number of pros who work with him and can give referrals--to look after the child during the proceedings.

Cheiny

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 9:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

WWYW (what would you want) your guest at your wedding to do in the situation?

You are getting remarried, and many of your friends are divorced as well. One friend is a fellow single mom and her 2 kids have special needs (as does she) but she’s blissfully unaware of her and her kid’s needs. Kids are between 3-7. You invite the older child but you specify to the mother that she cannot bring the younger child because you’ve seen the kids at many weddings and when the mom brings both kids, it’s a disaster. Shmorg food ends up on the kallah’s gown, on the floor, everywhere. They grab the bridal bouquet for photos - the mom encourages it actually. The ladies with bouquets are asked to let the kids hold them and play kallah. This and more, and it is predictable because it happens at many weddings. The mom can’t watch both kids at once. The kids end up being a tircha on the rest of the guests.

You invite the mom and the older child and don’t want the younger kid there at all - and you make that very clear to mom.

The mother does not have reliable babysitters, nor does she make an effort to find a sitter. You have offered to help the mom find a babysitter for the wedding and you know that other people have tried as well. The mother just says she can’t find anyone and laughs.

Mom decides to attend with both of her kids. She says she has no choice because she’s a victim here. She says she will stay for just the KP but she is likely to stay for all of it. She often pops in on weddings and stays the whole time, putting her kids at plates and feeding them - without an invitation.

I am this young mother’s mentor. I am married, but I was a single mom for a while so I can relate to some of the struggle. I also gave her names of babysitters, and I know she did not call them. One of them is a chessed babysitter - free. I suggested she not attend this wedding because the kallah made it extremely clear not to bring the youngest kid.

So if you are the kallah, which poll option do you choose?

ETA - To clarify, I’m asking if I advised the young mother properly (not to bring the younger child) and should I have been more firm and clear to push her not to go? She discarded my advice.

I don’t think you’re asking the right questions or offering all the alternatives in your poll.

You should not be “suggesting” to someone who obviously misses social cues and has trouble understanding suggestions, and/or ignores them. You should be telling her, in no uncertain terms that it is inappropriate and unacceptable to bring uninvited children to a wedding, and that experience has shown that they have wreaked havoc on weddings they have attended.

As her mentor, you must be more assertive and not take no for an answer. If she is unable to find a babysitter, or chooses not to accept the offers available to her, then she must not be invited. No kallah should risk having her wedding ruined because of this person.

Is she getting help for her issues? I don’t think young children of friends in general have any place at a second wedding of a divorcee.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 10:54 pm

I don’t think it’s so unusual to have some kids in a family invited to a wedding. We were recently invited to a wedding out of town (a drive away) and I called to say thanks for the invite, is it ok if we bring our oldest child (who knows a sibling of the kid getting married in that family). They said sure. I didn’t ask if I could take other kids, I don’t know as a guest I think it’s assumed they don’t want lots of little kids running around unless ur family.

amother

Oldlace

Sun, Nov 19 2023, 10:57 pm

What about having a babysitter booked in an advance (hired without the mother knowing ahead of time) to act as babysitter/mother's helper if any kids need a hand? That can be the official story if the mother gets upset about the whole thing, but the sitter can be assigned to this mom and her kids to control what happens (possibly with activities or toys that can be brought into another room).

Other option - phrase it this way to the mom - the family has hired a sitter if anyone needs back up at the simcha. It would be better if you only brought the kid who is invited, but if that id not practical, then you need to either use the provided sitter or stay home with the kids.

BTW, does the mom clean up or apologize for the chaos?

When my special needs kid was younger, if we brought him to a simcha we knew it was on us to deal with what he needed and keep him from bothering others. If it was a simcha where we anticipated being distracted (say, a simcha of an immediate family member) we brought a sitter along. Therefore our child could be there for a few pictures, a bit of the meal, some part of dancing or time with mishpacha, but could always be pulled into another room or area that we showed the sitter as soon as he/she arrived. It was a lot fairer to the ones making the simcha, as well as to our child, to set things up this way than to make him take part in everything when he simply couldn't handle it.

The point is, a special needs kid can come to a simcha but the parents have got to be realistic about what will and won't work. And if the parents can't be? Then the baal simcha may have to have an uncomfortable phone call with the guest and say they'd love to have them, but only with a sitter on hand (and yes, I still say the baal simcha books the sitter, but only because it sounds like you can't be sure the mom will book one).

WhatFor

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 5:57 am

Op, you say you're her mentor but also that her children have special needs, as does she, and she's "blissfully unaware".

If her kids have special needs that aren't being addressed, and which seem to impact everyone around these kids, they are being neglected. Have you brought this up with her? With her school?

Forget the wedding, the bigger picture is that her kids need help and she doesn't seem capable of helping them right now.

amother

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 6:14 am

WhatFor wrote:

Thanks, but this is not the focus of this thread.

amother

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 6:19 am

Thank you everybody for your input and insight. The wedding was last night I saw a bunch of pictures, and there were many many little kids there. I totally understand why this mother was asked not to bring her youngest child in particular, but after seeing the pictures, I really see why she felt picked on, given how many kids there were.

I agree with a person who said that the kallah should have invited the mother, but none of her children as opposed to leaving one out. However, seeing as I do not know the kallah, and nobody asked me my opinion on invitations…

I appreciate everybody’s time and thoughts. Thank you all!

amother

Whitewash

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 7:32 am

For the future: the goal is to break this pattern of behavior, and the current ways aren't working. If at all possible, I would think about having someone- ideally a young woman who is well liked and also works with or does well with special needs childeen- invite her kids to a special meal or small event. It should be framed as a specific invitation for them, independent of the wedding. Oh, it conflicts? We can keep an eye on them until you get back- such a shame they should miss this. And if it goes well, and is offered again, not during a simchah, maybe the kids will start asking to go with her or to something.

I think there will be more success when it's about her kids being wanted somewhere vs not wanted somewhere else. The mother won't learn the ideal lesson, but you already know that is unlikely. She might learn that she enjoyed a simchah alone, and do it for herself in the future, which helps the baalei simchah. And maybe it starts a relationship with a girl/organization who can actually help with the kids, which helps everyone, especially the kids. Every special needs organization of a decent size has or has had a family like this, where the parents are not on the ball and have a lot in common with their kids. There is a specific awareness and outreach. They may already have an idea of how to handle it- it's worth reaching out to ask.

amother

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 8:26 am

amother Whitewash wrote:

Thank you for this thoughtful post.

My role here is as her mentor - she asked me to fill a role for her as someone who understands divorce, a missing ex, a financial struggle, being a single mom, etc., and I am doing my best to be part of her team.

Every relationship requires boundaries as well as an understanding of one's role in the relationship. I'm wondering if people who are responding with very thoughtful replies have an understanding of the role of a mentor in someone's life.

To others who have made also very thoughtful comments as to what they think I should be doing as her mentor.

A mentor's role is not to break patterns, set goals, provide free babysitting or pizzas, or to set anything up for her. I don't think that is the role of any single person.

Her very capable therapist's role is to help her ID and break patterns.
A mentor is not supposed to tell the mentee what to do; yet can guide them to the best choice.
A mentor is not a case manager nor in charge of the children; BH this women in particular has therapists for her kids and they are also involved in many local community organizations. BH many people are looking out for her kids. She is not alone on an island.
A mentor is also not supposed to enable their mentee to make bad choices. Sometimes a single mom has to miss things when they can't find a sitter. Goodness, married mothers also have the same struggle sometimes.
I can guide her to resources for help with food; providing the food is enabling.
With her consent, I can reach out to the local chesed org and get her name on a list.
I can guide her to babysitters if she asks. I'm not setting it up for her or going behind the scenes to talk to the kallah.

However, I am getting some insight from the comments here as to what I should be doing as her mentor, in terms of when people post here that they have a mentor who disappointed them or hurt them. We see it here often - people have a need for someone to fill a mother role in their lives and seek that out wherever they can find it. Some call this person their mentor, but for the person who is expected to fill a mother-role, it's not reciprocal; she is not my child or my "adopted" child.

I'll close with this - echoing what I said before. Boundaries are the key to any long-term relationship, it's why I've been able to be here in this capacity for her for a while now.

Thank you again everyone for your comments! It's given me a lot of insight to a few different things.

amother

Oatmeal

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 8:35 am

amother Orange wrote:

I vote kallah loves this mom and does not want to hurt her feelings, and would rather neither child attend but understands that may not be possible. The friend should respect the kallah's clear boundaries and is not a friend if she cannot do that. This is the kallah's wedding, not hers - she has no right to ruin it. Stay home.

OP mentioned, the mother also has special needs. So while this sounds basic, it is evidently more difficult for this mother to understand.

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