You know those prize brochures

notshanarishona

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 5:46 am

amother OP wrote:

I’m grateful to all those who shared their feedback.

Interestingly enough we’ve gotten some beautiful letters and calls from parents thanking us for giving their children the opportunity to get something all their friends have but they can’t afford.

Or a different child came from a wealthy home and his mother said she wants him to feel the feeling of soliciting funds and needing to approach others

We do have competitive campaigns that undercut us every year and do unethical kupshtik.

Surprisingly we do have haskomos from rabbonim.

Again, this is not to excuse myself, just pointing out why I’m surprised by the direction of the thread.

May we be zoche to Moshiach speedily so we don’t need to launch our campaign. Amen

Yes there may be a minute percentage of parents who are ok with it, but the majority of parents I know in real life get very frustrated for multiple reasons.
Rabanim saying it’s ok to fundraise doesn’t address whether it’s ok to approach the kids without the parents consent.
If you really care what people think, change the tone of your shayla to … I know many parents don’t allow their kids to fundraise, is it ok for me to directly approach the kids and get them excited about prizes to make it harder for their parents to back out?
Also, going back to my point of which tzedkah I give to, if I was to fundraise for anyone or let my kids fundraise for anyone , it would be for the chessed center/ food pantry that we get food from monthly, or to the local bikkur cholim which sends us free meal’s anytime one of us is in the hospital or helps us in other ways or to the local matan besayser which gives subsidized food for Pesach and $ to local people or to the local day school my kids attend. I resent very much being pressured by hundreds of overeager kids including my own to give $ to a tzedakah when I have so many tzedakas that I have benefited from first hand that my community needs that I would rather give my $ to.

watergirl

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 8:11 am

amother OP wrote:

We do require a parent’s signature so I thought they were ok with it

Never thought of the flip side - the parents being badgered etc

(My kids are young - haven’t gotten to that stage yet)

Am I to give up my job now ??

No! Of course you should not give up your job!! It will continue without you, you may as well earn parnassa.

You asked for general thoughts in your OP, so you got them. This is a bit of a triggering topic for parents who feel they have to let their kid nudge people so they can win prizes - so they sign their names and give permission. There are those who like the idea and like you said, you have gotten beautiful, thank you notes from Parents. There are some from every group.

The parents who don’t agree with this or who allow it but don’t like it - they are not the ones who are going to contact you.

Yes, many of us feel it is predatory. My kids bring me home from camp. They oogle over the prices, we throw it out.

The one time a year that I allow my children to solicit funds is once a year for their schools, and I don’t like that either. As it’s for their own school, I allow it. They call their grandparents who are expecting the call, they get their $36 donation. Their prize is knowing they contributed to their school.

amother

Navy

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:07 am

You are grasping at straws. You have poster after poster in real life telling you they disagree with this method of fundraising and you bring up the letters sent into the organization. Those parents only used the organization to get their kids toys they couldn’t afford to buy them on their own. How crazy is that??!!
What lesson is that teaching the kids?
I mean I guess in this case it’s tzedakah to the poor kid who can’t get a Segway like his friends. So maybe you did reach your goal of tzedakah in a twisted way.

amother

Vanilla

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:18 am

I did not read the entire thread, so I’m sorry if this was mentioned
My husband very strongly believes that it’s important for my kids to go collecting
He said there is no other way to really get a feeling of what it’s like to be the person on the other side of the door
Because of his experience collecting in yeshiva, he treats every meshulach like a king, even if we can’t afford large donations. It’s a very difficult and humiliating experience and only from being on the other side of the door do you get a small taste of what it’s like to be collecting

amother

Snowdrop

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:31 am

amother Vanilla wrote:

I disagree with this

However, if he really feels this way then he can have your kids go collecting when they are beis medrash age. Not when they are young kids in elementary school. That is completely not age appropriate and potentially unsafe.

My dh learned in a large OOT bris medrash that has the bachurim go collecting around the US the first week of Nissan. I don't really agree with it, but at least they are adults over 18 and not being bribed with prize brochures.

keym

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:32 am

We have a family friend. One Purim. Totally drunk. Kids were coming to him Collecting. He would ask what are you collecting for? Hoverboard? Electric Scooter? Keyboard?
(As opposed to organization X or yeshiva Y).

Here's my main issues. You argue that these organizations allow children to earn prizes that parents can't buy for them. But they wouldn't feel the need at all if not for the marketing.
Let's say my son's class of 20. 5 boys have a hoverboard. Its not a NEED. But now 10 boys collect and earn a hoverboard. NOW it's a NEED for my son and I feel pressured to allow him to collect or give him the money.
But without the organizations aggressive marketing, it would have possibly stated as an organic "some have, some don't".

True, once the organizations exist, I'll be relieved that there's a way my son can earn the hoverboard rathe than me going in to debt to buy something that literally everyone in the class has.
But the premise is problematic.

I've written thank you letters to organizations. If you read it carefully, I'm thanking the organization for their communication, convenience, and speed. That my child got the prize in a timely fashion. That emails were responded to. Etc. I don't appreciate the collecting at all, but within its existence, I'm grateful for the positives, as opposed to other organizations that were difficult to deal with.

Additionally as another poster wrote, these organizations are usually not highest priority in the average family tzedaka budget.
Grandparents get resentful for being hit up. For example my in-laws are on fixed income and have grandchildren in at least 18 different schools. Their priorities are their grandchildren schools, the Tomchei Shabbos in their city, and their kids and their own alma mater yeshivos, and 1 tzedaka I EY. They don't necessarily have the budget to cough up $18 for every kollel, kupat yt, cancer organization, etc that is marketing to their many, many grandchildren.
Even if I gave a QUARTER to every child who knocked on my door for every Walk, Run, Jump, School, Auction, etc, it would cost me close to $500 (I calculated once). That's above my regular chosen tzedakas for the organizations and campaigns of my choice.

amother

Snowdrop

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:36 am

amother OP wrote:

Did you present to the rabbinim the other side of the coin and the parents' feelings on this? Or only the organization's side? It's not that hard to get rabbanim to answer sheilos the way you want, depending on how you present the shailah

And a couple of letters from parents is meaningless. The vast majority of parents are against this.

amother

Poinsettia

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:41 am

amother Vanilla wrote:

I dont disagree. My kids get a pushka from the yeshiva and they get what they get. That is called collecting tzedaka lishma for a yeshiva they know and love.

out-of-towner

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:42 am

amother Vanilla wrote:

You have a valid point, but in this day and age elementary aged children collecting can be unsafe. Besides that one of the more frustrating things to me is getting a gazillion little kids knocking on my door on Erev Shabbos when I'm dealing with my own kids and my own preparations for Shabbos and having to stop every time to give a few dollars to a bunch of kids collecting for the same organization. It's frustrating enough to have to stop for the many people who come to collect for themselves or their small PR-less organization (which honestly I'm more likely to give more significantly to the organizations that don't have PR overheads as much).

watergirl

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:42 am

amother OP wrote:

Interestingly enough we’ve gotten some beautiful letters and calls from parents thanking us for giving their children the opportunity to get something all their friends have but they can’t afford.

Or a different child came from a wealthy home and his mother said she wants him to feel the feeling of soliciting funds and needing to approach others

OP, PLEASE read that these parents in these letters are telling you. They can't afford to give their kids a toy, so they send their kid out schnorring for it. Going around and begging for donations, not even for the chessed but so they can have the thing they want. What is this setting them up for later in life? Not to save up and earn it by shoveling snow in the winter, but to beg and collect.

The kids from wealthy homes who have parents teaching them a lesson are also going about the lesson the wrong way. They should wait until they are in mesivta and then purim time, collect the right way. This is wrong.

These parents are twisted.

watergirl

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:45 am

amother Vanilla wrote:

IN YESHIVA. Not in elementary and middle school. There is a time and place.

amother

Crocus

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:46 am

amother OP wrote:

OP, anything can be rationalized. Communism can be rationalized by those mere few for whom it works for. We rationalize the lack of our education for our boys by propping up the minority it works for, etc.

To be honest with yourself - reread those rationalizations and see if they even make sense. They sound nice and wonderful at the surface, but if you think into it, they are feel good responses, not sensible ones.

I.e. - if it's a parent from a wealthy home, I'm assuming the kid it not lacking much. Shouldn't she then be encouraging her child to do tzedakah in the right form - for the mitzvah and not for the prize. If it's social behaviors she wants to encourage, there are plenty of other ways for her to go about it.

or if parents can't afford something, is using such platforms the right way to about getting it for the kids? Hijacking the tzedakah concepts for self-serving needs is not something to encourage our children with. The concepts of tzedakah and finding workarounds for acquiring unaffordable stuff should not be confused. It undermines the concept of tzedakah and is not chinuch.

And as a last point - unfortunately, haskomos of Rabbonim don't mean much today. People abuse their signatures, or aren't truly forthcoming about what they're asking for.

amother

Nemesia

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:56 am

I hate it as well. It should not be an option to use children as shnorrers! One of my sons cheders give them a pushka and the boys all bring it to shul on Purim and that's it.
One of my children were more difficult and used to go collect money behind my back and it caused a lot of stress in my house at that time.
A parents signature is NOTHING, kids know how to replicate a signature.
I have no idea how this type of fundraising is allowed in our community. I'm really happy to see that not even one person here agrees with it.

keym

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 9:57 am

Im going to add, that when my DD was young, there was a certain tzedaka I allowed her to collect for
Because:
1) in order to participate in the event, the run, you had to collect $5. That is very doable from all accounts.
2) at the run, participants got ice cream or slush and bags of dollar store prizes
3) they did have a brochure, but the amounts weren't particularly high, nor the prizes particularly fancy. (Art kits and such)
4) the parents were required to call in to request the brochure in the first place
5) girls were encouraged to earn the money creatively. Ideas suggested were running an erev Pesach camp with friends, making bake sales, or such.

Though I'm fairly positive that like all campaigns, by now, this campaign is way more glitzy and high end and not doable for a few 5-6th graders

mommyla

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 10:22 am

I believe that literally everyone hates these, but I still get my door banged down daily during busy season.

I've never allowed my kids to collect. They are not shnorrers. If they want to mow lawns or run a bake sale or lemonade stand once they're old enough to do it independently, kol hakavod. But I also make sure to sit them down with the prize brochure and show them that the scooter that "costs" $1,000 is actually only $80 and they can earn it if they want to (and it's something that we allow), and that it's not actually as cool or high-quality as it looks. The booklets are a lot less attractive after that.

amother

Lily

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 2:33 pm

Truly sorry but not surprised to read that this low down behavior is continuing. My kids are way past this stage and my neighbors don't have young kids either but I hated being the parent, and didn't enjoy being the neighbor in this situation 15-20 years ago. I think this is pretty unanimous among imamothers that I'd say a minimum of 98% of parents hate the manipulation of their young children.

BatZion

Thu, Feb 01 2024, 3:20 pm

amother Vanilla wrote:

Sorry, hard disagree on your husband's view of this miserable practice.
Why on EARTH should I send my children out to experience shnorrering in order to"get a feeling.. etc".
My children are the children of Hashem, as are all of our people, and we should be educating them to be sympathetic and empathetic towards all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds who are living in all kinds of circumstances but absolutely NOT through them needing to knock on doors to ask for money!
All of our children should feel like the children of royalty that they are - and should know that all Jewish people are children of royalty too- and we can teach that to them through our actions and speech but not in such humiliating ways.

amother

Crocus

Fri, Feb 02 2024, 4:27 pm

amother OP wrote:

I started the thread to get inspiration / ideas for new prizes.

I’m grateful to all who shared their perspective. It’s too late for this year but will be brainstorming different fundraising tactics targeting parents and not involving the children.

A wonderful shabbos to all.

Thank you OP for being so receptive to the feedback. That's very admirable of you! It takes a strong character to step up and take action.

Us mothers will be very appreciative!