Do you know what your sons are doing tonight?

Librarian

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 1:31 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

And he went to Brisk?

Also, guess how many threads are started here by women who are devastated to find their husbands watching p0rn? Quite devastating and much more common.

Also, getting drunk once a year, or twice a year, does NOT an alcoholic make. Which is 99.9% of the boys.

I'm sure Brisk would not take a boy if they heard that he's an alcoholic.

I would not know when exactly the addiction started. He got divorced shortly after marriage and the cause became public. He was pretty young, 23.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:02 am

amother OP wrote:

I told the boys to leave after they puked all over the bathroom (and gave them garbage bags) and they refused to leave and asked to eat something . I wasn’t comfortable with that (again these are total strangers who were acting very drunk ) and they just started helping themselves to food with their hands, ruining our food that we spent hours preparing for.

At the least, the yeshiva should have them come after purim, apologize, and clean up their mess.
If the mess is already cleaned up, they still should come a few times to your place for cleaning duty.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:13 am

amother Seablue wrote:

And your sons are a minority.

And yeshivot & parents of the sons who are not like that should be ashamed.

This drinking on purim takes place because the parents/yeshivot/adults they visit allow it to take place. They go around telling "it's a mitzva to get drunk on purim" et voila, it is allowed.

There is silent approvment of everyone around, I 100% agree with Librarian and OP, who seem to be the rare voices of reason in this realm.

I am appalled at all the mothers who say it is bound to happen and nothing can be done against it, and even more appalled at those who say that forbidding the smartphone is more important than keeping young bochrim from getting ignominously drunk on purim.

amother

DarkKhaki

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:37 am

That is very traumatizing and aggravating. I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm still traumatized from seeing bochrim that way. The vomit is a vivid memory and not feel like a yom tov.

This culture has got to stop. There needs to be a shift where the boys understand where the mitzvah ends and the aveiros start.

My yeshiva switched out of collecting during covid to a new system of online campaign with teams and all that and make learning all night and something special with their rebbeim by day. I think what they did should be copied and pasted.

amother

Hibiscus

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 4:11 am

I don't think it is a disaster that boys/teens explore their boundaries with alcohol in a controlled way after a lot of education. This is part of growing up.
I do think it is a problem that they are so disrespectful that they vomit in a strangers home, behave like wild animals and are rude. Even when drunk.
I know many men who drink on purim (most of them) but they retain their middos- they do things like cry with gratitude for their wives hand work, or about a beautiful shtickel Torah - and dance like crazy but they don't behave rudely or disgustingly.
Some of them will fall asleep and even vomit, but then will apologise, come and clean up the next day etc. They are so embarrassed by their lack of control. We once had a bochur (cousin) come across Yerushalayim every Friday for a month to do sponga because he vomited at the seuda.

Young boys need to be supervised if they are out of control like this. It is dangerous for them (vomit can go into the lungs and I personally know a boy who died because they drank so much they were unconscious and then vomited and choked)

My brothers when they were bochrim (over 18) were the sensible ones in their chevra and before Purim would have Hatzola number memorised and in their cell/borrow a cell for Purim.
When people drink rarely, they can easily get overwhelmed by alcohol without realising which is more dangerous than drinking regularly when you understand how the body responds from experience.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 5:31 am

amother Hibiscus wrote:

They cannot really control when and where they vomit. They do not choose to vomit.
But parents and yeshivot could control that they are not around at strangers' homes when they are drunk.

In other words: no collecting on Purim, if the responsible adults in their life (parents or yeshiva rebbes) think they should experience getting drunk, they should keep them in a safe space with themselves and allow them to drink and vomit and pass out all they want inside the yeshive or inside their parents' home. No problem having a big party there, but the combination of drinking and roaming around is catastrophic.

So either yeshivos want them to collect, then they should forbid drinking and enforce the prohibition.

Or if they want to allow drinking, they should make a big party on their own premises and watch that no-one escapes, at least not as long as they are drunk.

I personally am, like Librarian, rather fundamentalist anti-alcohol and I think it is best never to get habituated to alcoho, I.e. to never drink alcohol at all.

To me, the idea of making being drunk on purim socially acceptable and even desirable is a bad idea.

amother

Maple

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 5:44 am

I thought I had scared my sons good and well away from alcohol. In mesivta DS would barely touch alcohol at all.

Now, at age 18, he's admitted to getting drunk "a few times," including enough to vomit.

My kids know how strict we are about alcohol, DH hasn't gotten drunk for 15 years, but bottom line is that peer pressure can undo parental education more than you think.

I'd like to think that DS is more careful than other bochurim, but who knows? I'm glad I put the effort into trying, but I'm not so sure it's a method that is guaranteed successful. If it worked for you, that's amazing, but it doesn't work for every kid unfortunately.

amother

Arcticblue

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 6:38 am

Some yeshivos do take some responsibility. My sons' YK RY talks to the boys every year about drinking. Mainly:
1) if it's not your father's minhag to get drunk, you have no heter to drink
2) drink only dry red wine, white wine gets you sick to your stomach; there's no heter to drink whiskey, vodka, etc. The inyan is to get drunk on wine.
3) after every glass of wine, you must drink a glass of water. Not to worry, it won't get you undrunk but it'll help your liver do its work of flushing the toxins of drinking out of your body.

My younger boys don't drink more than 3/4 glass of wine total while going around. My oldest son has gotten drunk, although he would dispute that. He says he was never drunk, just happy and relaxed. But never to the point of vomiting.

OP has a right to be disgusted. I agree that yeshivos ketanos should take at least some responsibility for their boys, especially those boys who aren't living at home.

amother

Rainbow

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:01 am

@Librarian, DH grew up in a house like yours. His father never bought a bottle of wine stronger than kedem. His mother was constantly talking about how dangerous it is to drink and would freak out if her sons ever had a shot of whiskey.

Guess how many of the multiple boys who grew up in that home love getting drunk on purim?

Hint: all of them.

Thank your lucky stars and get off your high horse.

@OP, I agree with your reaction. I hate hate hate the whole drinking attitude on purim but unfortunately I see no way to stop it.

amother

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:04 am

amother Clematis wrote:

Op, you shouldn’t open the door. Don’t host the Purim seuda if it’s not for you. If you do, you’re taking a chance of such events happening which is why I will NOT. It’s not for my nerves and I accept that. Try not to put your anxiety on the yeshivos. It’s ok not to want to tolerate that but have that self awareness that it’s your thing.

I only invite people who I trust to act responsible (and yes I explain clearly to everyone coming that they are only invited if their husband and kids don’t drink to the point of being drunk) but I think you are right that we will stop opening the door to buchrim .

amother

Lightgray

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:06 am

Librarian wrote:

What do you mean by homes like mine? Where the parents take such a strong stand as we did?

Jumping in here.
Yes. My parents are just like you. Hammered it into their children that drinking on Purim is horrible. Made it clear that it's absolutely unacceptable and gross and intolerable.
As far as my mother is convinced, my brothers did not drink anything (except low alcohol wine for Arba Kosos) not a drop until they turned 21. And after that, my mother believes that they each have 1 cup on Purim and that's it.
She is very proud of her Chinuch in this matter.

The truth is that at least a few of my brothers have gotten truly sick, throwing up. Not stomach pumped BH but quite sick.
They were never educated on safe drinking. It was clear to them that calling my parents drunk for help or advice would be a very bad idea.

That was not the model I chose. I talk and educate but am also honest.
We discuss tolerance, tips. And I make sure that my boys know that there will be no consequences for calling me if they feel there's a problem. I don't share my displeasure because I want them to call me so I can stay up all night helping them deal with the consequences and learning rather than being one of those boys who may not call and attempt to just sleep it off.

Librarian, I'm not saying your boys are lying. But the nature of teens is to rebel. This conversation feels similar to the discussion of teen pregnancy. Where some (older and conservative) believe that pushing abstinence is the only solution and others believe that free discussion and allowing Birth Control is more appropriate for dealing with modern teens.

amother

Seablue

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 9:37 am

amother Babyblue wrote:

I'm not sure what to do about this. Mainly because it is actually a mitzvah to drink wine on Purim.

The source of this practice is a passage from the Talmudic tractate Megillah (7b):

Rava said: A person is obligated to drink on Purim until he does not know the difference between "cursed be Haman" and "blessed be Mordechai."

The issue of whether and how Rava’s statement should be implemented in practice is a matter of disagreement between various Halachic authorities. The concept of becoming intoxicated on Purim is a legitimate Halachic position, which requires understanding and validation regardless of whether or not it is accepted in practice.

So, the adult men who follow this halachik ruling will be drinking and I'm not entirely sure how they should stop their sons from drinking. If anything they are better off educating their boys on how to drink. I agree they need more involved. I don't know if every seudah needs a few sober guys to make sure things don't get out of hand. I really don't know. It's a difficult reality.

And if you don't hold by this halachik ruling, then you can't speak to this issue.

amother

Holly

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 11:31 am

im bH blessed that my father hates drinking and my DH hates drinking.

both drink on purim literally only for the mitzvah.

my father gave up smoking as a chassan and never touched one since.
DH never smoked a cigarete in his life (aside from a few puffs as a teen when he wanted to feel cool and couldnt make it through the cig LOL)

I dont have an issue with drinking on purim specifically. I have an issue with the general drinking culture year round in our society.
I see my friends husbands who come home drunk every shabbos/wedding and im saddened.

I personaly, dont think purim is the biggest problem.

Librarian

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 12:43 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

\
I thank H-shem every day. I am not on any high horse. Read my posts. And someone asked ME what I did. I simply described that. I can't understand what threatens you so much that you need to be rude and attack.

Librarian

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 12:45 pm

amother Lightgray wrote:

There is something Rebbitzen Zlata Press stresses when discussing chinuch. It is called GOING ON RECORD. That's what I did. That's what the klal should be doing. Whether it works or not we can't control But we must not give up and say boys will be boys and teens will rebel.

amother

Lightgray

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 1:10 pm

Librarian wrote:

Ok. I hear your perspective.
I just don't think it's effective.

Scenario 1.
Parents remind the teen that they are against teenage drinking. Teen tells parents that this is an expectation that he can't live up to.
Parents and teen sit down. Discuss various forms of alcohol. They determine an amount that the teen can drink if he must. They buy that predetermined amount. Teen feels heard and knows that he can reach out to his parents in an emergency. He mostly sticks to the predetermined amount, gets drunk, but not vomiting and sloppy. Or he drinks a bit too much, calls his parents, they pick him up and nurse him a bit and then have a discussion for the next year.

Scenario 2:
Parents tell teen that drinking is unacceptable. Teen tells parent that the expectation is too high, parents say "too bad".
Don't have any conversations about safe drinking, pressure, tolerance because all drinking is bad.
Teen drinks. With no discussions, no controls. He feels sick, he's scared to call his parents because he doesn't want to be lectured.
Or maybe he felt pressured or pushed by older boys in his yeshiva, but he can't tell his parents because he's positive that they'll judge him for being a sloppy drunk and not allow mitigating factors.

Like I said. My brothers didn't tell my mother that they were drunk, sick, etc. They were in some pretty unsafe situations because they felt that her "absolutely no tolerance for alcohol under any circumstances" going on record Chinuch that she did made it that if they were vomiting uncontrollably, they'd rather curl up on some random porch or shul and pray that they're ok rather than calling her.

I don't think boys will be boys. But I do hold of open conversation. Id rather have a conversation in advance about why they need to drink, how, give them specific amounts that they feel are reasonable and no more. And make it clear that they can call me and I'll pick them up and clean their vomit and not yell at them.
Because I've seen the danger of the alternative.

amother

Lightgray

Mon, Mar 25 2024, 1:16 pm

And I'm going to add, it feels like this is similar to the BC vs abstinence conversation that I mentioned earlier.

If course I make my expectations clear that I expect my children to remain abstinent until married.
But I also have to live in the reality of the world.
Which means open conversations and monitoring.
And if the culture in my community means that there is a significant amount of people engaging in pre-marital relations, then I have 2 choices. I could stick to my guns about abstinence being a value. But that could backfire.
Or I could say how even though abstinence is a value, there's also importance in open conversations and birth control education.

I feel like the conversations are very parallel.