BY Baltimore- no more bat mitzvas

amother

Red

Mon, May 13 2024, 11:29 am

I don't know. I have one kid who is very musically inclined. We do not have the money in our budget for music lessons. My mother paid for him to have lessons (she called it his chanukah gift) because she felt it was a waste for him not to grow that natural talent that he has. She has never paid anywhere near that much for any of the rest of my kids for any presents, and I wouldn't expect her to.

I have another kid who loves spicy foods. She will randomly buy him spicy products that she finds in any store that she's in. The total price of those products, even over years of purchasing them, is maybe 100 bucks. But she's showing him that she loves him in the same way that she's showing the musical kid that she loves him.

And I have one kid who goes over to her house to bake with her all the time because that's what she loves. I can't think of anything major that my mother has bought for that kid, but she spends way more time with her than she does with the other two. And no, it's not a gender-based thing, it's because that's what is important to that child.

I think that you can make two very different affairs, that cost different amounts of money and take different amounts of time and energy from parents, without giving your girls the message that you care less about them. Life is about a lot more than just stuff. It's even about more than time. It's about knowing each kid, their needs, their aspirations, and working with them personally.

(I say this as someone who would love for all simchas to be scaled down, not just girls' simchas. But that's besides the point.)

amother

Mon, May 13 2024, 11:47 am

amother Amber wrote:

OP seems like you're discovering that you aren't fully aligned with the school you chose for your daughter

It doesnt work that way in Baltimore. People seem to be mixing this up with the Lakewood Oros thread. The situation is entirely different. BY is a school that caters to the entire community except the modern orthodox who send to OCA. Even then, there is often overlap and some families have kids in BY, TA, and OCA. That is literally why Baltimore is a beautiful place to live and we cant comprehend the exclusivity that goes on in Lakewood. There are girls in my daughters class who have fathers in kollel on yeshivah lane and girls who would probably fit better hashkafically at OCA. But it works and everyone is friends.

There is no such thing as not aligning with your school. The school is synonymous with the community which is why this is so strange.

Based on what someone said earlier about walking back the rule, I am guessing that I am not the only one who went crazy over this and they are realizing the rule wont work. Just a guess.

sushilover

Mon, May 13 2024, 11:51 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

It's not necessarily about the fact that boys and girls lead different lives and do things differently. it's about how they feel their parents treat them. There should not be a huge disparity between the things a parent does for one child over another. If a boy turns 8 and his parents throw him a birthday party with his whole class and give him a bike and an iPad, and then a year later his sister turns 8 and she gets to go out for lunch with her mother and gets a new doll, you can see how she would feel very hurt and less-than, no?

If equal treatment is the goal, again, I would think that amount spent should be the determining factor, not the size of the crowd.

If my son got a 50 dollar party at age 8 and my daughter got a 50 dollar doll, I don't think it's a problem.

amother

Lightblue

Mon, May 13 2024, 11:54 am

sushilover wrote:

It is if she really wanted the hoopla and excitement of a party, the feeling of being as much the center of attention as her brother got to feel, and was told she can't have it so she'll have to make do with an expensive doll instead.

amother

Plum

Mon, May 13 2024, 11:54 am

amother OP wrote:

So my boys have a party with 100 people and my girls have a party with 10? That goes against the chinuch in my family and the values I have.

Maybe those of you who are yeshivish dont get it but this is not a hashkafa I am raising my family with. I dont bash your hashkafa so please dont bash mine. I value raising my girls as equal members of our community and want to celebrate them as such.

There is nothing wrong with valuing your girls as much as your boys. You should. They are equal. But you can't deny that boys and girls are different and the Torah gives them completely different roles. This comes from the secular world that everything has to be the same for boys and girls. If you believe in equality= sameness, rather than having different roles that are equally valued by Hashem, then instead make your sons bar mitzvah like the bas mitzvah. Maybe have them all do mitzvos like the girls do them and you'll feel much better. Or go to any reform temple and you can have your sameness. You can differ hashkafically but in essence you are denying a basic foundation of yiddishkeit that yes, things work differently for boys and girls. Do you have your girls go to minyan three times a day in the rain and snow? Do they make kiddush at the shabbos table? Do they wear tefillin? Will they wear a talis and kittel someday?........

sushilover

Mon, May 13 2024, 12:01 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

I don't believe most girls want or need to have the exact same kind of party as their brother.
Does this individual child need that? That would be a different story. I get the feeling that the OP wants them to have the same event because of the principle of the matter, not because this daughter specifically needs the same.

boysrus

Mon, May 13 2024, 12:03 pm

amother Red wrote:

wow your Mom is an awesome grandmother! I hope to take lessons from this iYH

amother

Lightblue

Mon, May 13 2024, 12:11 pm

amother Plum wrote:

But that's my whole point. I can't treat my children differently than Hashem says to. Hashem is the One who said that men must do all those things. But Hashem definitely didn't make any specific mitzvah to do all the many celebrations we do for a bar mitzvah boy, the same way Hashem didn't specify what we do for a bris in that way. There are the basic things like putting on tefilin, having an aliyah, etc- fine. I think every frum girl understands she won't be doing those things, and for the most part accepts that. But in that case, the decision to elevate the boy's celebration in all the ways we do, and not the girl's, is purely a societal and parental decision. Why do we do the bo bayom the way we do? Why do we do the shabbos event the way we do? Where did that all come from? Not Hashem, to any extent.

sushilover

Mon, May 13 2024, 12:20 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

Do you think is a positive or a negative that boys' bar mitzvahs have gotten so extravagant over the past 40-70 years?

I personally don't think it's a good thing that our society has turned bar mitzvahs into mini weddings. I don't have a solution, but I'm certainly not going to play any role into making it a societal norm to do the same with girls.

amother

Mon, May 13 2024, 1:04 pm

There is no halachic basis for my son to have anything more than an aliyah in shul on his bo bayom and maybe challa rolls if you hold it requires washing and benching for a seuda.

Anything else is a social construct.

Therefore, once everything is a societal construct, there is zero difference between a boy and a girl and I wont celebrate one over the other.

Bringing feminism and reform temples into this is irrelevant imo.

Bringing up social standards and how they evolved is also irrelevant. That is not the point here.

amother

Lightblue

Mon, May 13 2024, 1:13 pm

sushilover wrote:

I'm not even talking about how some bar mitzvahs have turned into mini weddings these days! I'm talking about even the bar mitzvahs I went to growing up 15/20 years ago! Even the most basic bar mitzvah is about 5 levels up from the typical girl's bas mitzvah party. (And yes, I'm not talking about the mini-wedding girl bas mitzvahs either, I'm talking about a standard bar mitzvah and a standard bas mitzvah- they will be levels apart, for no reason)

amother

Plum

Mon, May 13 2024, 2:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

That's right. There is no halachik basis for your son to have more than a seudas mitzvah, an aliya and some hold to give a pshetel. So instead of making your son a grand seuda, make him one on the same level as your daughter so they'll both be happy, instead of making your daughter's more grand.

I think the piece that's missing here is that bar mitzvahs have always been "grander" than bas mitzvahs no matter what level of materialism. My grandfather's bar mitzvah back in Europe was an aliya and a very small seuda with just his family. He always mentioned that by family bar mitzvahs. But he couldn't remember anything at all being done for his sisters bas mitzvahs. Bar mitzvahs have always been "more out there" compared to bas mitzvahs. Men's mitzvos are "more out there" than women's which are more modest. Their roles in yiddishkeit do get more attention. The bas mitzvah celebration in a manifestation of Sarah b'ohel, more quiet and modest, but no less important.

amother

Lightblue

Mon, May 13 2024, 2:44 pm

amother Plum wrote:

. The bas mitzvah celebration in a manifestation of Sarah b'ohel, more quiet and modest, but no less important.

It calls for a very mature outlook to be able to feel that something that is more quiet and modest is also no less important. I personally did not have that maturity until wayyyy past 12. I'm curious how many 12 yr old girls feel just as important with a much less celebrated event.

I felt less important, but like that apparently was just the way it had to be, that girls are just lesser in Judaism and there's nothing to be done about it.

Beautiful

Mon, May 13 2024, 2:45 pm

amother Plum wrote:

Celebrating bas mitzvahs is a fairly new phenomenon. Mostly American, there was a reconstructionist Rabbi in the 20s who made a ceremony for his daughters. It gradually leached into frum culture and we make parties for girls now, but that's not how it was in der heim.

amother

Lightblue

Mon, May 13 2024, 2:48 pm

Beautiful wrote:

In general anything for frum women is a fairly new phenomenon! How many female CEOs and inspirational singers and vocal artists and actresses and principals and architects and therapists and professionals did you have back in der heim? Just because women were not given much of a role in society outside wife, mother, homemaker, and sometimes shopkeeper doesn't mean it was the right or best way to do things.

amother

Winterberry

Mon, May 13 2024, 4:13 pm

I did not want to make a big party for my daughter bas mitzvah. In honor of her birthday I took my kids out of school for a day (Sunday) and took them to a major amusement park. Then I took my kids to a fancy restaurant for supper. My 12 year old was so so happy with how I celebrated her birthday with just the siblings and parents. For her bas mitzvah gift I bought her (in her name) stocks and I explained how the stock market works. She was so happy with the Adult gift.

amother

Mon, May 13 2024, 7:07 pm

Again I repeat, please do not impose your chinuch views on me. Thank you.

You value a small quiet steak dinner at a restaurant and I am fine with you doing you.

My daughter wants a party with her friends and there is no reason I cannot accommodate that and celebrate her bat mitzvah that way.

Besides telling me that I should make my sons a tiny bar mitzvah is little late in the game. My boys already had their parties.

amother

Mon, May 13 2024, 7:12 pm

Beautiful wrote:

I really dont care what they did in der heim.

They didnt have running water, electricity, heat, or cars either.

Once there is no halachic issue, I see zero value in doing something just because thats how they did it in the shtetl.

And my daughters arent having ceremonies. They are having a party with friends, saying a dvar torah, thanking her parents, and talking about something she learned or a chessed project she did for her bat mitzvah. Really nothing reconstructionist about it.

sv9506

Mon, May 13 2024, 7:43 pm

As a person with a very small family, I think that this rule is so unfair. I have friends who, both them and their spouse have many siblings - and then many children - most of whom live nearby and have parties in which their family takes over all of the tables and my family is so small. I would much prefer them to say that you can invite whomever you want with a maximum of 30 guests (or something like that) - at least then all of the girls will be on the same footing.