"Kinks" in the system...

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:36 pm

miriamf wrote:

I have said many times that it is far far from perfect. If you would only know how hard it is for me too...yet I am not trashing it. I have heard from roshei yeshiva, that encouraging the masses to go to kollel is a horaas shoah, something not meant to be, but had to be done due to various reasons we can discuss if you would like. They see the problems, but believe the problems would be worse otherwise. You may not agree. That's up to you. Why can I not believe. Why is that wrong? Why has it become dispicable to follow talmidei chachomim?

You shouldn't trash it. It's silly to trash it in general. I did discuss with someone else on the other thread about the horaas shaah thing, which I don't buy. But you're right, it doesn't matter. You've pin pointed the crux of the issue, which is that you live in a society where the opinion of gedolim comes first. My society has no such thing which is why I analyze and question everything, because my opinion counts. It's what I base my behavior on. I always forget that the same thing probably does not apply to most of those who are in that world (about whom the discussion is taking place) because decision making is based on very different factors. If I see a problem in my own community I can speak out and try to change it, and from what you are saying it seems that this wouldn't apply in yours. So then there definitely is no point in the discussion.

Last edited by cassandra on Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:42 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

It is unfair to portray those who value the opinion of gedolim as mindless robots. I am surprised you have not noticed that I think and analyze quite a bit, especially after admitting all my feminist beliefs. But I suppose it is not that important if you do not think so. Think what you want. I give up.

justanothermother

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:43 pm

This is a comment taken from The Yeshiva World News. I am still trying to figure out if it is for real.

Quote:

Im really confused about you! I closely followed the articals in the Hamodia since I am obviously up to that stage. I agree that there are many stigmas in shidduchim that are compelely unfounded and untrue. However, I totally and completely disagree with you comment that a working boy is not a stigma! Of course it is! Working boys are second class citizens. A boy’s tachlis on this earth is to learn and delve into Hashem’s heilige torah! He should be constantly swaeting adn toiling in Torah. My heart cries for all these bums who have seeped to such low levels that they have actually left the the torah learning and have entereed the goyesha work field. Don’t they realize how wrong that is!! I daven for them every day that they should realize how wrong they are and how messed up they are! There is absolutely no reason at all why they are sitting behind a desk all busy with work instead of sitting in a bais hemedrish learning and shteiging in Torah.
I went to one of the top institutions in Eretz Yisroel and learned so much and one thing that our teachers repeated over and over again and engrained in our blood that we must marry a learning boy! They have much better yiras shamayim and more derech eretz than those working boys. Learning boys are much better off and are great boys. I would never be able to marry a working boy becuase I feel that I would never be able to respect him at all since he stooped to the the level of working! I think that NO ONE should begin working until there is absolutely no money left in the mother’s pocketbook and there is only moldy bread left on the shelves. Until that happens, then the husband should be sitting in the bais hamedrish.
I know that many poeple will not be happy with this letter adn think that its extreme, however thes are the values that I was engraiend in seminar, and I feel that I don’t have to compromise. The person as mentioned above in the letter will have a harder time with shidduchim so unfortunately may nebach have to marry someone who is working. My heart goes out to her, but that may be the hishtadlus that she has to do. but for the rest of us NORMAL girls, I see no reason why I should marry a working boy? im curious what other opinions are on this topic!

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com.....itor+
(Stigmas+in+Shiduchim).html

Last edited by justanothermother on Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

creativemommyto3

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:49 pm

miriamf wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

Yeah, If I was a mindless robot, then I wouldn't want to ask, I would just say OK and do as I am told.

Most frum ppl ask questions on why things are done. However, in the Torah there are such a thing as a chok , a.k.a niddah, para adumah etc.. and we do them just because Hash-m tells us to. We can think of reasons why and it's okay to ask them but in the end of the day we just do it b/c Hash-m tells us too. The Gedolim are our "representatives" who take it upon themselves to totally understand and become living sifrei Torah who have a good understanding of what Hash-m really wants from us. I doubt that they would have a problem with someone asking them for a reasoning.. forgive me if I am wrong.

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:54 pm

miriamf wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

Where do you get that from? You are taking this as an attack and it's not an attack at all. I understand why there are people who choose to listen to Gedolim and I respect that. I think we need all kinds of Jews to keep Klal Yisroel going. My point wasn't that people don't think for themselves. Obviously they think, analyze, and are intelligent (some of them anyway-- no more and no fewer than in my community). The point is that the system isn't going to be changed based on what you think it's only going to be changed if the Gedolim feel it needs to be changed. What I was saying is that I feel my opinion counts for something because it can change something, even something big, and in your world people don't necessarily feel like that because the bottom line is always the Gedolim. It's not necessarily bad, just different, and the difference is in how you discuss these things.

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:55 pm

justanothermother wrote:

This is a comment taken from The Yeshiva World News. I am still trying to figure out if it is for real.

Quote:

[url=http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/15442/Out+Of+The+Mailbag+-+To+YW+Editor+(Stigmas+in+Shiduchim).html]link[/url]

It is hard to know what is real. My girls told me that it is a favorite past time in their school to make up letters to the editor of Yated and Hamoldia and get a real kick out of people's reactions. My daughter has showed me letters and said oh, a girl in my class wrote that. (BTW, I do not approve)

gonewiththewind

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:56 pm

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

Sorry, I misunderstood. Not that I agree with you totally anyway, but you wouldn't epect that would you?

gold21

Sun, Dec 14 2008, 9:52 pm

You have to understand that a lot of the anti-kollel-type sentiment stems from personal frustration with the system, and bchlal not sinas chinam.

For example: I was in BY type school, and yes the teachers did push kollel life. It was subtle though. Not like "thou must marry a learning boy or you are doomed to unhappiness" chas vesholom. No, just, it was subtly encouraged. I don't know how to explain. In my dh's yeshiva though, learning was outrightly encouraged, and working was outrightly looked down at.

So anyhow when I married my dh he wanted to learn in kollel for 2 yrs minimum, preferably a little longer than that. I wanted no kollel at all, preferably a college degree. Lol anyhow we "fell in love" if you will, despite our different hashkafos, and dh started in kollel. Ok so we had no parental financial support. I was 19 so obviously had no college degree. I soon got pregnant BH.

Before I knew it, I was working full time, had my son at some drop-off babysitter joint that I hated, but it was all I could afford, and could barely make ends meet. We lived in an apt the size of a shoe that made me claustrophobic. I missed seeing my son during the day. I missed him so much. I cried a lot. I was depressed. I was stressed. I was overwhelmed. I said to myself, "This cannot be Emes. This cannot be what Hashem intended. Hashem does not want me to leave my son at some germy noisy babysitting group where he is not taken care of the way his mommy could care for him, and work full time to the point of complete utter exhaustion, and be depressed and unhappy, just so my dh can learn."

So I said to my dh: Honey, you're going to work!! This was two years into our marriage.

And I've smiled so much more since, BH. My dh is Baruch Hashem Baruch Hashem very happy to be working because now he has a happy wife.

So.....do you see why I might have an awful lot of questions about the kollel system?

Its not sinas chinam. I don't hate the kollel system chas vesholom. I just have sooo many questions about it. Why can't I express them?

I don't hate YOU miriamf or hashem yaazor or etc. In fact, I think you guys are very nice. Why can't moshiach come simply because I have some real genuine questions about kollel life?

gonewiththewind

Sun, Dec 14 2008, 11:06 pm

Gold, I think you are very nice too, but I don't feel like arguing about it anymore with anyone, especially you.
No one ever said asking questions is wrong. It is a complicated matter, and not simply, yes you should learn in kollel or no you should not. It does not seem like a message board is the right place to discuss it. Everyone throws in their neighbors and relatives and how they don't like what they do, and it all becomes silly.
No one ever said questions are wrong. Statements presenting negative sterotypes about any group is wrong. In my opinion, for what it is worth, it is sinas chinam.
Gold, I am glad you are happy now, and as everyone knows, each couple has to do what works or them. I encourage my teenage daughters to think long and hard about what is right for them and not just want kollel unless they are absolutely sure. My hope in posting was that I could correct some erroneous preconceived notions, not to declare only one derech is right, because it is not. Something tells me I have failed.

chaylizi

Sun, Dec 14 2008, 11:35 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

That isn't true. Most BY type schools tell their girls that they must marry someone who will learn for a few years otherwise they will have marital problems and children with issues. Marrying someone who will work immediately is seen as second best, and it's not a close second.

Learning longer than a few years? Obviously that isn't for everyone.

I went to a BY and this was never made the importance. never! it was actually hardly talked about as being "the way" of life.

Many of the seminaries do.

funny. in my sem, our menahel was all hun g up on us not marrying boys that smoke.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:31 am

chaylizi wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

miriamf wrote:

But no one says it is for everyone..

I went to a BY and this was never made the importance. never! it was actually hardly talked about as being "the way" of life.

Many of the seminaries do.

funny. in my sem, our menahel was all hun g up on us not marrying boys that smoke.

In mine it wasn't really said outright but it was always spoken about in subtle ways..