Ashkenazi genetic convergence over time

iyar

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:23 am

jkl wrote:

To address this point in context of genetics - it doesn't appear this way. Because of our how we only marry within a limited gene pool, we have a significantly higher rate of many genetic conditions. So much so that genetic researchers actually try to get Ashkenazic Jews to be the clinical trial participants.

If it were to be lemaala min hateva, these genetic problems shouldn't be in play. The genetics issue so prevalent within our communities fits perfectly in line with the tevah of the world.

You're right. We're not zoche to seeing open miracles today. We live by the laws of teva, and we breathe and procreate in the same manner as all other human beings. But think of where we'd be if we didn't have heroic people who set up dor yesharim to protect us from some of the problems created by centuries of marrying our own, and think of the siyata de'shmaya they had. We have to guard our lives and our health and live with that in mind, but when we're following the dictates of the Torah we don't have to worry about the scientific implications.

KJP

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:26 am

zohar wrote:

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I heard that since the Ashkenazi Gene pool is so small, didn't relatives show up as more closely related, like second and third cousins, when they are more like fifth cousins.

23&me says this, when you get your DNA results. I got 100% Ashkenazi Jew and a billion matches.

iyar

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:29 am

Congresswoman wrote:

I was referring to the genetic study specifically. How do they show we are above science?

The genetic study specifically doesn't give any results indicating we exist on a spiritual plane in addition to the physical plane. Scientific study exists on a physical, earth-bound plane. We can use science in our lives and we're supposed to. That doesn't negate the fact that when we look for answers we have to include a spiritual aspect because we're a fusion of both spiritual and physical elements.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:32 am

iyar wrote:

But we do need to worry. DY doesnt capture everything, it only helps with a limited amount of genetic conditions. Just look at the significant higher rate of some cancers among us I.e. breast cancer. This is due to genetics.

We can't just brush aside these things. Cancer alone is disproportionately affecting us, never mind other genetic conditions. These aren't small blips to just push away.

Congresswoman

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:34 am

jkl wrote:

And it is on trajectory to get worse.

dankbar

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:48 am

Jewish people do have our own genetic cesspool. Heard from someone working for Jewish bone marrow registry how Jewish samples match Jewish people in need. That's how organization started, when director was in need if his own match, but couldn't find a match, in general registries across the world, he set out to find his own match, within the Jewish communities. Once he had many samples, he became the go to, when other Jewish patients needed a match, thus the organization was born, making Jewish matches.

People are hesitant about giving marrow when they are called upon that they are a match, because they don't know if it will be going to a Jewish recipient or not. By law, you can't know who it's going for, till a year after transplant. The thing is that the Jewish samples will mostly only match to other Jews. If the org is being called upon for a match worldwide they cannot decline,
though mostly it wouldn't even match to the general society.

Last edited by dankbar on Fri, Dec 02 2022, 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:56 am

jkl wrote:

So what do you propose? Force our kids into marriages with those who seem genetically appropriate, rather than allow them to date and choose a spouse whom they want to marry?

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 10:57 am

jkl wrote:

By interacting within our own tight circles I was referring to the current boxes we have today - chassidish, yeshivish, litvish - and the even smaller circles within.

There are no Torah instructions or guidelines to create these small boxes. This is purely a societal construct. So with in mind, and with looking at genetics, it seems like Hashem has set up the world that we should be one large happy Jewish family instead of so many small blocked off groups.

Right and it seems like we are only becoming more polarized even within orthodoxy.

Congresswoman

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:19 am

Chayalle wrote:

So what do you propose? Force our kids into marriages with those who seem genetically appropriate, rather than allow them to date and choose a spouse whom they want to marry?

Who’s talking about forcing? And are you really ‘allowing your kids to date whoever they want to marry?’ And of course we should consider genetics when marrying! Aren’t you doing Dor Yeshorim?

Your post makes no sense, or you don’t comprehend the topic at hand.

For starters we could take advantage of dating sites.
Word of mouth will only get you so far.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:28 am

Chayalle wrote:

So what do you propose? Force our kids into marriages with those who seem genetically appropriate, rather than allow them to date and choose a spouse whom they want to marry?

I am not sure you understand my posts. My comments were addressing how we are becoming more and more polarized, and how that doesn't align with the nature of Hashems world nor with the Torah.

My suggestion would be that we find ways to be more inclusive instead of continuing on the current 'exclusive' trajectory.

Laiya

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:41 am

jkl wrote:

It seemed to me that the OP was showing the opposite, that we used to be more fragmented within mini-boxes, as compared with today.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:48 am

Laiya wrote:

It seemed to me that the OP was showing the opposite, that we used to be more fragmented within mini-boxes, as compared with today.

Not really. She was demonstrating how closely related we all are within the last couple of generations, with no comparison to then or now.

Because the now only serves to further complicate our genes. If members are one group are already very closely related to each other and only continue to marry within themselves, that only propagates faulty genes and recessive conditions. That is how species/groups breed themselves out of existence.

The more you mix up the gene pool, the better it is for us. It doesn't get better if you remix the same, it only gets worse.

iyar

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:58 am

jkl wrote:

Being inclusive within the parameters of who we’re allowed to marry won’t get us far. The only way to really open up the gene pool is through marriage to geirim. There’s one Sephardic group that doesn’t allow that but they’re a minority. The problem is that geirim themselves are a tiny minority of our population so while these marriages happen they don’t really make a dent in the issue.

Laiya

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 11:59 am

jkl wrote:

Not really. She was demonstrating how closely related we all are withing the last couple of generations, with no comparison to then or now.

Because the now only serves to further complicate our genes. If members are one group are already very closely related to each other and only continue to marry within themselves, that only propagates faulty genes and recessive conditions. That is how species/groups breed themselves out of existence.

The more you mix up the gene pool, the better it is for us. It doesn't get better if you remix the same, it only gets worse.

There was a comparison to then and now, if you're referring to the OP. Jews within the same cemetery were more diverse from each other than any two random Ashkenazi Jews today.

Lack of genetic diversity is a problem, but if all Ashkenazi Jews are genetically similar, then the problem isn't because we marry within our sub-groups.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:07 pm

Laiya wrote:

Sorry. I was referring to the posts around recent genetic testing. You're right about the article doing the comparison between then and now.

But the article supports my point:

"Despite the rapid growth of the Ashkenazi Jewish population during the last 700 years, the population became more homogeneous.”

We are becoming more and more homogeneous in recent years instead of becoming more diverse. That feeds right into propagating problematic genes and recessive conditions. We are creating more and more genetic problems, not less.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:15 pm

iyar wrote:

Opening to geirim is a large fix. But opening to others between our groups and stopping the continuous polarization among oursleves would be a step in the right direction to slow down the genetic decline.

Chayalle

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:43 pm

Congresswoman wrote:

Sure we do Dor Yesharim, but beyond that, my kids date for marriage.
How would dating sites help, if most of the people on those dating sites are presumably of the same gene pool as the ones being suggested to my kids by Shadchanim?

Beyond that, I'm not telling my kids that due to genetic concerns, they should focus on a marriage partner that is likely to have a genetic makeup that is different than their own. Because you have to live with and get along with the guy too, and that goes beyond genetics.

That's why it makes no sense to worry about genes when it comes to marriage.

(yes, I get that marrying within your own circle is not the most genetically desired, but as to compatibility in other areas, it is.)

BTW one of my brothers married a girl whose parents are a mixed Ashkenazi/Morrocan-Sephardi marriage. Great genetic move, but I assure you that was not his focus in dating. She was raised in the same circles he was, so it worked for him.

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:51 pm

Chayalle wrote:

No one is suggesting decisive and quick action. That doesn't make sense and wouldn't work anyways. But a community mindset shift (as well as awareness) in a gradual manner would do us a lot of good.

Last edited by jkl on Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 12:51 pm

jkl wrote:

What percentage of the frum Jewish population is Geirim, that it would make more than a dent?

jkl

Fri, Dec 02 2022, 1:17 pm

Chayalle wrote:

What percentage of the frum Jewish population is Geirim, that it would make more than a dent?

I would have to run through numbers to work that out, but I dont see why we're focusing on geirim. That we have no control over. What we do have control over us to broaden our horizons. At the very least, we should put a stop to this polarization within ourselves and reverse these rigid community lines.

Just like it took years to get to the point, it will take years to undo. We just have to start working towards it. What is within our reach now is to try to at least stop the genetic line and then gradually work towards reversing it.