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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:28 am
I work in a hi-tech firm and they put a lot of emphasis on making the office environment funwhich means a lot of parties and day trips and such. every year they give a certine amount of money for teams to get together and go out. My team is going out to lunch together. In my team there is me, three more women and three men. the women are married and one of the men is as well the other two are young and not married. None are frum. Would you go out to a restourant with them? (They will go to a kosher restaurant possibly mehadrin but not for sure, I am not asking kashrus wise but more on a hashkafa level do you think it is o.k to sit in a restaurant with male coworkers?)
I am asking my LOR but just wanted to hear your take.
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Tehilla









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:31 am
No, I wouldn't go.
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:35 am
amother you are going to get so many different answers, hashkaficly and otherwise too.

my husband has also had yearly get togethers with his coworkers (many of them being female) and he is the sole religious one. he went, it was fine, but then, we both do not consider it bad to "hang out" with ppl of the opposite s@x.
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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:36 am
op here.
I wish I can be as confidant as you and just say no but I feel so uncomfortable always refusing to go and now that it is just my team it is even harder then when the whole company goes.
And I can't even explain why I don't want to go. they don't understand what 'ce pasht nisht' means...
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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:40 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
amother you are going to get so many different answers, hashkaficly and otherwise too.

my husband has also had yearly get togethers with his coworkers (many of them being female) and he is the sole religious one. he went, it was fine, but then, we both do not consider it bad to "hang out" with ppl of the opposite s@x.


op.

I know your right there are meney out there that find nothing wrong in hinging out with ppl from the oposite gender I guess my question goes out to those who do see a problem in it.
The reason I have this question even though I don't hang out with men is because I know it is not halacha and I feel that not going to these functions hurt me prophesionally ans socially in my job.
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Atali









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:45 am
amother wrote:
shabbatiscoming wrote:
amother you are going to get so many different answers, hashkaficly and otherwise too.

my husband has also had yearly get togethers with his coworkers (many of them being female) and he is the sole religious one. he went, it was fine, but then, we both do not consider it bad to "hang out" with ppl of the opposite s@x.


op.

I know your right there are meney out there that find nothing wrong in hinging out with ppl from the oposite gender I guess my question goes out to those who do see a problem in it.
The reason I have this question even though I don't hang out with men is because I know it is not halacha and I feel that not going to these functions hurt me prophesionally ans socially in my job.


I am someone who does not hang out with men generally, but in this situation I would think you should go. Here is my reasoning:

1. You are risking your job if you don't
2. There are women there too and you could focus on talking to the women
3. You see these people everyday at work so its not like you aren't talking to them otherwise
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levial









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:48 am
Atali wrote:
amother wrote:
shabbatiscoming wrote:
amother you are going to get so many different answers, hashkaficly and otherwise too.

my husband has also had yearly get togethers with his coworkers (many of them being female) and he is the sole religious one. he went, it was fine, but then, we both do not consider it bad to "hang out" with ppl of the opposite s@x.


op.

I know your right there are meney out there that find nothing wrong in hinging out with ppl from the oposite gender I guess my question goes out to those who do see a problem in it.
The reason I have this question even though I don't hang out with men is because I know it is not halacha and I feel that not going to these functions hurt me prophesionally ans socially in my job.


I am someone who does not hang out with men generally, but in this situation I would think you should go. Here is my reasoning:

1. You are risking your job if you don't
2. There are women there too and you could focus on talking to the women
3. You see these people everyday at work so its not like you aren't talking to them otherwise


I completely agree. Especially about risking the job. I once got undocumented feedback on this. (I.e. They didn't put it into my file, as it was not performance related, but as a team leader I was making others feel like I didn't like them if I didn't eat with them.) I fixed it and the next year it was the "it factor" that allowed me to get promoted and the supervisor said as much.
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Ruchel









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:55 am
In some places people eat together every day, in some places sometimes, in some places never. You have to find out if this is a significant thing for them, or if they just happen to do it.

If they are ready to go to a kosher restaurant for you, please don't refuse! they wouldn't understand. Many people would dream of it instead of eating a salad in a treif restaurant (yes there are heterim for that).
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TriesToBePerfectMom









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:30 am
I'm the only frum woman in a all-female team in my work. It's a very social and outgoing group, and they do try to accomodate me by trying to have quarterly group lunches in kosher restaurants. Yes I do feel very uncomfortable with the topics that come up during their conversations but I do feel it's important to participate in these lunches to show my support, and for them to consider me as part of the team. Recently they decided to have their 'holiday party' at a non-kosher restaurant, and the organizer of the event actually came up to me and told me, "I understand that it is in a non-kosher restaurant, so we all will completely understand if you do not attend." I was touched at her thoughtfulness! They even did the 'gift-exchange' in the office before leaving for the restaurant to accomodate me. I had to purchase a $15.00 gift but I had no choice. I feel that my group would be offended if I didn't attend their group gatherings and feel it's so important to make a good impression on everyone.
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KAlex









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:44 am
I haven't had this kind of job situation in a long while, but I don't know that it has a clear cut answer (for most of us, anyhow).

I'd have to ask is your main issue with being seen apparently socialising with men, or is it actually being there for yourself?

If the former, then I'd say you should be able to rely on your Rav's psak (you said you were asking) if he says you can go, knowing you have this issue.

If the latter, well, you know your team better than any of us do. Are they likely to be professional but a little more relaxed, or might they get objectionable? Is it going to be okay for you to sit nearest to the two women, or will that seem odd?
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Tova









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:54 am
When I was still working at the office full time, this came up all the time. I would often bring my lunch and go out with them for lunch (after asking a Rav, of course, who said if it was important I could go). Now that I am only in the office 1/2 day it is much easier. I leave 1:00-ish, so I can very easily beg off and say I need to maximize my hours in the office while I have childcare.
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greenfire









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 10:32 am
sure I would go ...
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small bean









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 12:16 pm
I think if your a group it's no big deal. as long as it's not one on one.
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Peanut2









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 12:55 pm
I would feel absolutely fine going with a group. Not attending these types of things can be professionally harmful.

In fact, I think having a mixed group can be better than hanging out with a bunch of non-frum women. When I was single I worked at a non-frum Jewish organization staffed mostly by women. The lunch hour conversations were absolutely horrible and inappropriate. Another (non frum) woman and I couldn't stand it and would escape together.
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STovah









  


Post  Mon, Dec 21 2009, 12:58 pm
I would go as well. I generally do not go to the office parties (I work for a company with around 700 employees) as they are held after work and the focus is more on the dancing and drinking (kids are a great universal excuse for not going), but I would go to a smaller lunch type of event.
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amother






Post  Tue, Dec 22 2009, 2:34 am
op here.
Thanks for all your answers.
My rav said I should go so though I still am not comfortable with it I am going.
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chocolate moose









  


Post  Tue, Dec 22 2009, 11:27 am
Pity this forum isn't closed. There are a lot of things that are done in the context of a job that stay at home or work at home moms just don't get.
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Tehilla









  


Post  Tue, Dec 22 2009, 11:30 am
chocolate moose wrote:
Pity this forum isn't closed. There are a lot of things that are done in the context of a job that stay at home or work at home moms just don't get.


But perhaps they used to work and do have experience. Both my husband and I have run into this question several times (for him ongoing as B"H he works, and for me when I did work).

Anyway, OP, I'm so happy your rav was able to give you good guidance!!
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chocolate moose









  


Post  Tue, Dec 22 2009, 11:38 am
If they give good advice, fine. If they are just "judge and jury", then who needs it.
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amother






Post  Tue, Dec 22 2009, 11:44 am
chocolate moose wrote:
If they give good advice, fine. If they are just "judge and jury", then who needs it.
First of all, who decided whether ot not advice is "good"? Secondly, most people who commented on this thread seemed to be those with personal experience in this matter and explained their positions. I think those who did not have professional experience refrained from answeing. Who's judging?
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