A question for the MO Imamothers

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:16 pm

cassandra wrote:

No, what I am saying is that it is halacha, and instead of just saying "We choose not to follow these particular halachot" you make it sound noble-- as if you are these discerning, well thought out adults who make only the best decisions. The correct thing to say is "We do not believe that halacha needs to be followed indiscriminately" or "We believe that halacha is a matter of personal choice."

Just curious-- do you also feel that American law is a matter of personal choice?

please, there are halachos and there are gedarim. No s*x while in nidda is the halacha, the rest are gedarim. I don't believe anyone will be going to h*ll because their husband gave them a hug and kiss right after they had a baby.

rosehill

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:17 pm

aidelmaidel wrote:

Okay, so I'm not MO, but this question has been with me for years so I figure this is a safe forum to ask right?

Please I'm looking for imamothers who identify as MO to answer this question.

I have a former coworker who I've stayed in touch with.

She grew up MO in the five towns area. She fits with what most would call the NY MO "type" - wears pants, short sleeves, keeps her hair uncovered, will eat parve in a non-kosher restaurant, in shul she'll wear a hat & a skirt, keeps a kosher home, etc. Her husband goes without a kippah most of the time.

I am not judging her or her hashgofa, but I want you to understand what I'm talking about in context.

She's had a few kids. I always get pictures from her in the hospital after she's had a baby. There are always pictures of her holding the baby with her husband hugging and kissing her (the wife, not the baby).

Now for sure she's in niddah since she just gave birth (and no they weren't c-sections). Is this a standard MO practice or is she out of the norm?

According to MO "hashgofa" what's acceptable during niddah? Are you allowed to touch? What about hugging and kissing? etc...

Thanks for answering, and I apologize if I offended anyone with this question.

AM, when you say you don't want to be offensive, I believe you. But you kind of are judging her, and what you believe to be her hashkafa.

You, I, and (hopefully) everybody else on this board knows exactly what the halacha is in this case. That barring a specific psychological or medical condition, a man may not touch his wife when she is a nidda, which she almost certainly is immediately after giving birth.

"Hashkafa" cannot allow you to break Halacha. Hashkafa refers to concepts such as how to relate to the modern world, what emphasis to put on minhag and chumras, and so on.

So this woman, for a reason only she knows, has chosen not to keep this Halacha. Maybe she's not even aware that it is Halacha.

But extrapolating her behaviour to Modern Orthodoxy as a whole is no fairer than me posting, say, that I heard a rabbi in Aguda turned out to be a child molester. Does Chareidi Hashkafa condone child molestation? Or I heard of a Chosid jailed for money laundering. According to Chassidish Hashkafa, is money laundering acceptable? What about bank robbery?

In short, if there is a self-respecting REITS graduate who matirs your friend's behaviour (barring an extenuating circumstance), I do not know his name.

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:17 pm

cassandra wrote:

I am the amother that you are responding to and about american law, I am not american, so it does not really concern me but if I lived in america, no, I would not think that it was a personal choice.

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:19 pm

dlj wrote:

Like the above posters have suggested, it's clearly not the fact that she's MO that she isn't keep harchakot etc.

MO does not mean people are more lenient with halacha contrary to what seem people on this forum seem to believe!

We keep halacha 100% - some people might choose not to, but according to definition of our hashkafa we are 100% halachic. I wear skirts only, elbows are always covered, wouldn't dream of even having a coffee (yes, maybe unusual) in a non-kosher restaurant/cafe, check all my vegetables incredibly carefully for bugs, don't have a TV, don't watch any films that I wouldn't let little kids watch etc etc.

Everyone is different....each to their own.

sometimes it does (and I am MO and am saying this) but sometimes it is just that we have learned differently than others (not the harchakot, but sleeve length - I learned that it can be a bit above the elbow, I dont always cover when I am in my own home, I have a TV)

cassandra

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

I am the amother that you are responding to and about american law, I am not american, so it does not really concern me but if I lived in america, no, I would not think that it was a personal choice.

Assuming you don't live in an anarchic or corrupt country, do you believe that you are required to abide by the law of your land or that you may pick and choose which laws feel right to you?

aidelmaidel

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:21 pm

rosehill wrote:

aidelmaidel wrote:

Actually, I guess I am asking if there is a different halachic opinion. I'm a BT and don't have the education that most have. I know that halacha can have many different interpretations, and so I'm asking if there is a different opinion in the "MO" world that I just don't know about.

Maybe there is a MO Rov out there who rules that the halacha allows this, maybe not. That's why I'm asking. And I agree with your second to last paragraph. I'm guilty of extrapolating, but she is not the only MO identified person who holds this way. That's why I'm asking.

Thank you for understanding my idiocy. Very Happy

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:22 pm

aidelmaidel wrote:

dlj wrote:

I'm not trying to start a fire, but all of what you wrote above makes you sound pretty chareidi.

So just as the Chareidi forum somehow managed to come up with a "definition" of chareidi, how would you define "Modern Orthodox"?

I work (IN NYC) with many "MO" identified people and while there is a spectrum of behaviour within that group, there are many things which seem common (not saying all, just common): women wearing pants, hair uncovered, will eat parve in a non-kosher restaurant, men without a kippah, etc. I'm not trying to rope all those who identify as "MO" into one stereotype. I'm just trying to understand a specific behaviour.

Or is MO just a state of mind, Wink

PS Just as an aside, I heard a story that a man once went to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and asked him, "What do I need to be considered your chossid?" and the Rebbe's response was "Any Yid who is willing to do one mitzvah I consider my chossid."

as you said, there is a spectrum and with that spectrum you can have a MO woman that covers all of her hair, wearing socks with sandals and no TV and someone of the other end who wears shorts and little tshirts and goes to the beach.
there is a VERY BIG spectrum of what MO is.

cassandra

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:23 pm

amother wrote:

dlj wrote:

And chasidim are more lenient than MO in certain areas. It's not a matter of leniency per se, but rather about whether or not you work within the halachic framework. And the answer is that as a matter of MO policy and philosophy, the halachic system itself is paramount.

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:24 pm

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

exactly.

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:25 pm

cassandra wrote:

amother wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

DH's had a MO chosson teacher and I had a yeshivish kallah teacher and there wasn't a single difference in what we learnt. I don't think any rav sanctions breaking harchakos but people make their own choices.

that is exactly it. we each learned what is allowed and what is not allowed. then we decided together what we were going to keep and not. it was just however it came to be, nothing talked about before hand.

Did you have this discussion about hilchos Shabbos too? Kashrus? Dinei mammonos? Is halacha about deciding what a couple feels like or is it a system of behavior that applies to Jewish people?

no, we did not have any discussion about shabbas or kashrus. those are halachos but the karchakos are gederim, not halacha.

cassandra

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

amother wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Did you have this discussion about hilchos Shabbos too? Kashrus? Dinei mammonos? Is halacha about deciding what a couple feels like or is it a system of behavior that applies to Jewish people?

no, we did not have any discussion about shabbas or kashrus. those are halachos but the karchakos are gederim, not halacha.

You are sounding extremely ignorant. Gedarim are halacha. Most of hilchos shabbos is gedarim. Do you only keep the 39 melachot, or do you go beyond that? Do you keep muktzah? Do you drive a car?

rosehill

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:30 pm

aidelmaidel wrote:

Firstly, I don't think you're idiotic!!!!
Secondly, since there's a tense history on this board between MO and "Chareidi", the hairs on my back stand up when I read posts like yours. I probably shouldn't be so sensitive.
Thirdly, (and most importantly), the simple answer to your question is, no, I am not aware of a MO rabbi who paskens that Halacha allows this. But as we see, not everybody follows all halacha equally.

Raisin

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:30 pm

My take: Breaking halacha does not fall within M.O. There are some people within M.O who take a laid back apprpach towards certain halochos. eg kashrus (eating in a vegetarian resturant) nidda (not keeping harchokos). There are also chareidi people who are lax in these areas. (the difference is a chareidi couple won't post photos of themselves hugging on facebook) But I guess someone who is anyway lax in halacha is going to gravitate towards Modern Orthodoxy, rather then charieidi.

Aidelmaidel, I am sure we both know chabad people who do things that are less then ideal. But we know that is not the chabad way.

amother

Thu, Dec 02 2010, 5:31 pm

cassandra wrote:

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

amother wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Did you have this discussion about hilchos Shabbos too? Kashrus? Dinei mammonos? Is halacha about deciding what a couple feels like or is it a system of behavior that applies to Jewish people?

no, we did not have any discussion about shabbas or kashrus. those are halachos but the karchakos are gederim, not halacha.

You are sounding extremely ignorant. Gedarim are halacha. Most of hilchos shabbos is gedarim. Do you only keep the 39 melachot, or do you go beyond that? Do you keep muktzah? Do you drive a car?

the way that I learned about the harchakot, from a charedi kallah teacher, was that they are there to help us not come to have relations with our husbands. thats all. I was taught that they are really gederim on gederim.