A question for the MO Imamothers

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 10:48 am

Barbara wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Do you really think you need to teach full harchakos to someone who has never been "shomer negiah" in their lives and you know is fooling around with her chosson? I know a lot of people like that and I really wonder. If they are obviously touching, like holding hands and being affectionate in public isn't odd to teach them when they are married they can't pass each other the salt? Those are usually the same people who are meikel for themselves about touching during niddah also, and for sure after having a baby.

Yes.

I know many cases of people who weren't shomer negiah pre-marriage but keep harchakot post marriage.

As do I.

But I still don't think that anyone -- be it a rabbi or not -- gets to judge whether or not someone is entitled to learn halacha.

I know A LOT of people who touched/kissed etc. before marriage and still keep TH. It may not make sense to you in your mind, but it is actually not that uncommon. I think many are even surprised at themselves for growing into this mitzvah, but since they were taught all the halachot they were able to go ahead and keep it when they were ready.

Perhaps the couple should be given the choice on whether they want the "Lite" course or not so that THEY WILL BE AWARE they are missing something and can go learn it later when they are ready. My main problem is that this choice is being made for others by a kallah teacher. And some people (an unfortunate minority, but it would be crazy to think they don't exist) believe that anyone who appears slightly different from themselves or identifies as modern orthodox won't keep any halachos.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 2:08 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Yes! If a person is choosing to attend an Orthodox class in the United States, they are seeking an Orthodox view. Even if they kiss in public, seem to be sleeping over at each other houses, and whatever else. Gosh, people, do you not know the Orthodox community in the US? Or at least the reality of Reform or COnservative or Conservadox?

While some people in some places (like, say South Africa) have mostly Orthodox synagogues empty of their non-frum members, in the US th choice to affiliate with Orthodoxy is not a default. If a person doesn't drive on shabbos, they consider themselves frum. Even if they wear sleeveless and there are pictures of them kissing in a swimming pool.

Before I actually read the entire post, I was going to mention South Africa (and just to mention, when people are mentioning kinds of people or shuls or whatever, its not automatically america, ok? there are many many many other places in this wonderful world)
my husband is from south africa. most of his friends are not what americans would call orthodox, but they all consider themselves orthodox because when they DO go to shul or DO something religious, it is always an orthodox shul and the right way. In order to get married in South Africa under the beit din, one has to go to TH classes and they are Orthodox classes. Now, the teachers know that most couples are not going to be keeping TH at all or very little but they must take this class. And yes, I believe that he class is on everything, not lite. But most couples are not keeping it anyway. But they are taught it in the hope that one day maybe they will. (on the flip side of course you have couples like my husband's friends who took the obligatory classes and were totally grossed out that it only made a negative impact on them and they were already living together anyway Sad

)

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 6:03 pm

shnitzel wrote:

When kids start keeping Shabbos we never encourage them to jump right in. We teach them to work on it gradually and don't give them all the halachos at once. Why shouldn't we do the same for Taharas Hamishpacha. When a kid starts keeping kosher the first step is often peeling their pepperoni off their pizza I can't imagine giving them the whole rundown about tovellng dishes and kosher shechita. I think it is often the same with Taharas Hamishpacha, although they aren't kids.

In some places people really know so little. In my very modern orthodox shul there are often women who shake my DH's hand while he is wearing a black hat which shows a complete ignorance to even the existence of certain halachos. I really do think what is taught needs to be tailored to the audience. Not skipping halachos but perhaps not stressing what is not likely to be kept so that the whole thing isn't thrown out the window.

There are a few flaws with this comparison. It sounds like you are talking about a BT who is learning kosher and shabbos (because most of us do not give our kids peperoni and slowly wean them off it. Nor when a child has reached the age of seichel do most of us let them only keep some rules of shabbos.) Now a BT is part of an ongoing learning process with their Rav or Rebbetzin, which may also include ongoing learning of TH. So in that situation it is OK to teach them Th and other things bit by bit. But for the average person signing up for a kallah class this is THE ONE CHANCE they have to learn the halacha. They are not part of an ongoing process. They assume the orthodox class they went to has taught them everything. At the very least they should be told stuff is being left out so that they aware.

How many kallah teachers who give the "Lite" version of the class follow up to see if their clients are ready yet for the rest? TH is also a very private thing, so unless they happen to make the mistake of posting hugging photos post baby delivery and having someone post this info on imamother, they are unlikely to ever find out/be told they are doing something wrong. Many of us discuss shabbos/kashrut things with our friends. Or we see them doing htese mitzvot and see the differences between their custom and ours. TH is a private mitzvah. There's no way for them to notice they are leaving stuff out.

Plus, the kid eating the pepperoni knows the Rabbi would not eat at Dominos. He knows there's more stuff to learn and that he is taking it one step at a time. TH is something most people do not know about. If this Lite teaching is going to go, it should come with a disclaimer.

shnitzel

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 6:47 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

If someone is growing they can read books and the Yoatzot make their rounds through the MO communities giving shiurim which tend to be very well attended. Things like mikvah are less private in MO communities, it is talked about more freely (DH was dying at a Yontif meal when all the women were telling mikvah stories) and I am not advocating leaving it our entirely but mentioning harchakos instead of teaching in detail, if a woman is interested in keeping them she can ask questions. Also many MO schools and seminaries teach basic TH in case girls decide not to go to kallah classes at all.

When I say "kids" I am talking about teenagers from various ends of the spectrum mostly OTD, MO, and not frum and a lot of them won't have the opportunity to learn after high school. I don't think pepperoni kid knew her Rabbi wouldn't eat at Dominoes, she honestly thought she was keeping kosher. And the MO woman coming to kallah classes may be just as ignorant about not touching someone male as the kid is about not eating pepperoni. (and now everyone is going to jump on my back for generalizing but it sometimes is true, or they think it is a crazy chumra)

Peanut2

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 7:49 pm

shnitzel wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

Are you MO? Where are you from?

I ask, because while I know a few communities that are as you described, most MO people and communities are quite different, in my experience.

First of all, saying that mikvah is talked about openly and there are lots of classes in one paragraph, then in the next lumping MO with OTD and not frum and saying they won't be learning after high school seems, ahm, contradictory. But never mind that.

The huge majority of MO boys and girls go to post-HS yeshiva. Even the ones who end up living with their boyfriends 7 years later, or who never have and never will be shomer negia.

MO seminaries and HS (and Stern College) sometimes teach TH. This is not because they worry that their graduates won't take kallah classes! It's because it's a huge huge part of Torah. And with practical applications Wink

These classes are not taught le'maase. You're more likely to look at a selection from the Talmud, then Rambam, then maybe Shulchan Aruch followed by various halachic responsa.

Also, my experience has not been that women talk about mikvah openly. I have only once spoken about it since married. It was to my best friend and about how I stress out over making sure I have no stray hairs on my body. But clearly your experience is different.

Anyway, if someone wants to know of THM and takes a class (and idenitifies as MO and lives in America) - they aren't viewing themselves as "growing." They want to know the halachot. They may not keep everything, but they will be surprised (and very pissed off) to discover that the teacher omitted major parts of halacha.

Peanut2

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 7:55 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Peanut2 wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

)

My hubby is South African, too Smile

It's a unique community, though. No equivalent in Israel, I think (and I lived in Israel for a big chunk of my life.) And even when I lived in England, where many people are members of United Synagogue shuls (abbreviated as US, hmph) but are not observant, I think that people were much more into Judaism than they were given credit for.

My experience in England was that things were constantly being dumbed down for everyone. I started writing a bunch of examples, but nevermind that. Just wonder how the Brits feel about this.

shnitzel

Wed, Dec 15 2010, 9:13 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

shnitzel wrote:

I live on the Upper West Side.
I spend a lot of time with teenagers who are MO, OTD, and not frum which is why I lumped all three when talking about teens. Obviously there are major differences between the three and most Yeshiva kids do end up in Israel but definitely not all of them, the goal is to get as many kids to Israel as possible. I meant that for a lot of not frum kids their last chance at learning about frumkeit is high school, more so than a MO woman who gets the "lite" version of kallah classes and that we still don't pound every ounce of halacha into their head just because it is their last chance.
Non MO seminaries don't teach Taharas Hamishpacha at all despite it being part of the Torah, it is completely saved for Kallah classes.

I grew up in a Yeshivish community and went to Bais Yaakov and then married I guy from YU and here I am today, I wear a sheitel and DH wears coloured shirts during the week and a hat on Shabbos and learns at YU. Whether I am MO Orthodox or not is up for everyone else to decide. I still have no clue.