Why do parents NOT tip their kids Counselors??

Barbara

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 7:14 am

allrgymama wrote:

I haven't read all five pages.

DD is in daycamp and she is just over two years old.

I will not be tipping the teenager who his helping the Morah with the daycamp (Morah herself has a daughter that must be close to 12 years old, if not older and Morah has been doing this she herself was in 10th grade. So, a while).

While I appreciate the frustration of working for pennies (I did work as a daycamp assistant one summer and the amount they did -- or rather, didn't -- pay me, was appalling. My mother marched down to the director and demanded more), and as a working adult and mother the entire concept of tipping, in and of itself, is very bothersome to me.

I would be happier paying more for the summer than to have to tip. Just as it's not my job, as someone eating at a restaurant, to actually pay a person's salary through tip. I paid for my meal it is the owner's achrayhis to pay a salary.

I'm even curious of what the halachic implications of this are. A parent shouldn't let their child go work in a camp if they aren't happy with the salary. And as far as sleepaway camps go, you have to remember that beyond the tips or salary that camp provides, they're also being fed and given a roof over their heads, and entertainment and access to a pool and so on.

(Also, my counselors did jack squat when I was in sleepaway camp. They should get hundreds of dollars for sitting at a table and watching their bunk eat lunch? Or making sure I made my bed? Really? The only camp I know of where counselors actually played ALL sports with their bunk was in Fay-Gay. In Bnos, you got handed off to some first-year staffer who supervised while your counselor hung out in the bunkhouse with her friends.)

Tipping used to be a mark of excellent service (for lack of a better word) and it has degenerated down to something expected. I once walked out of a restaurant, after terrible service, and had a waitress follow me and my sisters to the door demanding a tip.

If we went back to only tipping for excellent service, not only would it force owners (or in this camp, camp morahs and directors) to pay a better salary, there would be competition in the field to provide better service.

So yeah. I won't be tipping.

<braces>

Move to Europe, where that's the way things are. But if you live in the US, that's not the system, and your refusing to go along with it is a deliberate and intended refusal to pay what is, in effect, a portion of your bill, and a deliberate refusal to pay for services rendered to you. In (almost?) every state of the US, if you work in the food service industry or another industry in which tips are expected, your employer may deduct a certain amount of anticipated tips from minimum wage, and therefore pay you less than minimum wage. Waiters and other employees are willing to do that because they anticipate that tips will put them well above minimum wage. But if you don't tip, they're working for very low wages. In Pennsylvania, for example, you can pay a tipped employee only $2.83 per hour -- less than $23 a day for a full time job, or less than $5900 per year, assuming no vacation days.

Again, I suggest that you ask your rav if it is acceptable to refuse to tip a waiter who does his job.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:24 am

allrgymama wrote:

I haven't read all five pages.

I would be happier paying more for the summer than to have to tip. Just as it's not my job, as someone eating at a restaurant, to actually pay a person's salary through tip. I paid for my meal it is the owner's achrayhis to pay a salary.

<braces>

OK, forget camp, this has me very interested.
You don't tip in a restaurant??? Ever?

About the other stuff - I can't speak for your camp since I never went to Bnos, but at some camps the counselors are very involved even if you don't see it physically because the other staffers handle sports. It is a shame you never got a good counselor. I made up bedtime stories for my little campers every night, helped them with homesickness, had to break up fights over who got the food first at the lunch table, had to do a lot to make sure those beds and cubbies were clean and sanitary, ensured that the kids showered, made sure everyone stayed together on camp trips, made sure they put sun tan lotion before going to the pool, watched to see everyone was indeed eating and tried to find foods they would eat if they were not, sorted the laundry etc. All the things a mom has to do at home.

For my older kids I had to do a lot of fight intervention and midos work, still all the same cleaning/sanitary condition stuff (although they usually showered on their own without being reminded), watching what people ate became more paramount as there were even more eating issues, and even deal with some medical issues. It was much more of an emotional job than a physical - doing activities with them - job. They could handle sports just fine. But when one camper starts calling the other campers spoiled snobs and nobody will get out of bed in the morning and one camper will only eat melba toast...yeah that's my job. to fix that. When the head counselor gets up and says "counsellors keep your kdis sitting at the table and make sure they don't talk during zmiros" that's my job. And the campers know there isn't much I can do to force them to sit there, so unless they like me and I have kept this bunk as a cohesive unit and into the camp spirit I am in real trouble. Not everything that is work is physical like playing activities. I know there are some counselors who just let their kids fester and don't do anything to keep the bunk happy, but it is a crying shame if you got those types every single year you where in camp. In my experience they were not the majority.

blue eyes

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:36 am

one of the summers I was a HC in a bungalow colony- I didnt get many tips- in fact I prob got one or two ( ppl generally forget about the HC, but its okey, their salary is much nicer than the rest of the counslors ) but one thing I do remember there was one parent that was so sweet on the last day of day camp her daughter walked in with two balloons, congratulations and you did a great job! and a card to it.
the fact that a parent took the time to acknowledge that we worked hard all summer to give her daughter a good time touched me. I promised myself then to try to do the same when my kids are day camp age. Its so easy to make a counsler, HC, teacher assistant or whoever feel good w/o the tip.

Fox

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:01 am

allrgymama wrote:

And as far as sleepaway camps go, you have to remember that beyond the tips or salary that camp provides, they're also being fed and given a roof over their heads, and entertainment and access to a pool and so on.

This is precisely the problem a few of us keep bringing up: camp counselors are not really analogous to other professions where tipping is expected in the U.S.

For example, my DD (who is a waitress at a well-known camp) called me last night and mentioned that she was getting ready to go bowling with the camp. Part of the "package" is that she can participate in various camp activities at no or very slight additional cost. The camp assumed the financial cost of bowling as well as the bus to take everyone there.

So before we judge that her wages are inadequate, we have to calculate far more than just salary and tips. Is she really an employee or is she a camper with additional responsibilities who has therefore received a discount on her camp tuition?

If she's truly an employee, then why should the camp pay for her recreation in the evening? And if she's a glorified camper, then why should she receive tips?

Again, I'm not in favor of stiffing counselors at camps where tipping is expected. But I think the parents of these counselors are being seriously negligent if they don't clarify in their own minds and their teenagers' minds whether the teen is going as a true employee or a discounted camper.

If the teen, like my DD, is going as a glorified camper who wants to work at the camp to offset the cost, then he/she cannot claim to be "counting on" tips. And if the teen genuinely needs the money, then perhaps these quasi-jobs are not the best solution.

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:03 am

blue eyes wrote:

Uh oh, was I supposed to tip the head counselor (that's what HC stands for, right)? This is never on the suggested tip sheet, which I follow to the letter...I alluded to this in a previous post: it is very hard for parents to know who to tip. The camper may not know the names or titles of all the people involved in his/her care. Please, camps, if this is part of the pay structure, don't assume that the parents know all the details.

Another problem - how to do it? If a child takes a bus back and forth to camp, how am I expected to distribute cash to counselors and staff I have never met at a place I might be only once a season for parents' night (which is entirely too hectic for tipping at our camp - it isn't "tip night")? Now that my camper is older, the envelopes of cash I send with her are likely to get where they are supposed to go, but younger children forget, or lose things, or things may be stolen from them. Here's another very good reason to pay staff appropriately, and include it in tuition.

farm

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 10:09 am

cm wrote:

blue eyes wrote:

I put a thank you note and a tip for each inside an envelope and safety pinned it to my child's T-shirt with the staff member's name on the outside of the envelope. If you are really concerned about theft (which I wasn't- they go straight from the bus [where they are supervised by the bus counselor] to their counselor in the morning), send a check made out in the staff member's name instead of cash.

allrgymama

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 11:43 am

@Barbara: I don't 'not tip' across the board. And when I tip, I tip very well. That's just how I was brought up. I very rarely don't tip anything at all -- the service has to have been horrendous in either the food I received or by the person who served me and the restaurant or waiter is usually aware when I get up from the table that I'm not pleased.

The only restaurant that I can (at a stretch) think of that employs Jewish waitstaff is Cafe K -- and all I really know is that they're Israeli, which may not mean anything. I would only expect to tip in a very nice restaurant (in the City, for example, or The Reserve, in Lakewood) and the waitstaff in those places aren't Jewish. What are the halachic implications?

And I'm not arguing with whether that is the law in PA or not; I don't know. But that kind of seems stupid. Wouldn't one's salary depend on a daily amount of tips, then, to ensure that the person is earning minimum wage?

@JawScience: I didn't say that I don't tip ever. I tip for excellent service. Since I rarely go out and, when I do, go to really nice restaurants, it usually isn't a problem.

Off-hand, I can only remember two times that I didn't tip -- once about two years ago and once close to 7 years ago.

In fact, I once had an issue with a restaurant in Manahattan (due to a credit that should have been applied to a bill, but wasn't) and the staff wouldn't take the partial payment. I still made sure to tip and to tip well because it wasn't a reflection of the waitstaff, which was excellent.

And my counselors weren't horrible (okay; some were) they just weren't amazing. I was stunned, in a positive way, when I went to Fay-Gah and saw how much work the counselors put into their bunks. Then again, I only started camp when I was 11 years old; someone who has kids much younger is probably doing more of that 'mommy work'; older kids shouldn't need someone to tell them to put on sunscreen and stuff like that.

@Fox: Honestly? I was never a counselor in camp as a 'grown up' or high school graduate. I did one summer as a lifeguard (split between two camps) and then I went to Camp Simcha -- where no one is paid besides for Head Staff.

I didn't get paid as a lifeguard and I didn't get tipped either. I KNOW that I was more involved with some of those campers than their own counselors were. So it's another reason why the whole tipping thing bothers me. What precisely is the bar for someone who deserves a tip and who doesn't?

And in Simcha? You have this amazing food, amazing activities, amazing concerts, amazing special activities, trips, free canteen, free soda machines all over the grounds, access to free phones (you're allowed to bring cells, but good luck finding service without having to twirl around on your head while sneezing and holding your phone between your toes) and internet.

Get paid? I would pay for the opportunity to go there again (they wouldn't take me as married staff :-( ) and many staff actually do by donating their paychecks right back to Chai Lifeline.

I don't understand why other people, who feel about regular camp like I do about Simcha -- I hated camp, for whatever it's worth, even before I went to Simcha -- aren't as happy to go to camp without a paycheck.

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 1:04 pm

allrgymama wrote:

I don't understand why other people, who feel about regular camp like I do about Simcha -- I hated camp, for whatever it's worth, even before I went to Simcha -- aren't as happy to go to camp without a paycheck.

Some of the parents feel that they spend years spending top $$$ at the camp, at a certain point they want their kids to be earning some $$$ so the kids have to take summer jobs in town rather than in camp, because the camp won't pay them anything.

Many of these camps are family businesses, with most of the $$ going to the support of the owners, so they don't pay the staff much. If a teen wants to really earn something to put away (like toward seminary costs) she's better off finding a local job than going to camp.

lamplighter

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 2:21 pm

I just want to point out that day camps and overnight camps are different.
In my community (at large) the local frum day camps pay decently and tipping is a gesture. Many girls work in day camp specifically if they want to earn some money. It's not a lot but it is something. Overnight camps pay peanuts and everyone is expected to tip. Waitresses have to PAY to service people so they should be tipped as well as counselors. You tip what you can, but not to tip at all is not getting any message across to the owners, or standing up for what's right, it's just hurting the staff.
If you think the tipping is unjust then take the money out of the amount you pay for camp, don't take it out on the hardworking teenage staff.

amother

Sat, Jul 30 2011, 9:59 pm

Financially, we have never been able to afford camp. A cousin of ours was nice enough to raise money for different children to go to sleep away camp at different times. Never more than one child a year. We had a hard time just affording the things on the camp supply list. Enough skirts, bathing suits, terry robe, etc. It was a major struggle to tip also. We did what we could, but it was no where near the recommended amounts.

I also had one dd work as a mothers helper so that she would get a camp experience without us having to pay for it. I was happy enough for whatever she made.

As a child, I did go to camp. But when I got old enough to work as a waitress I told my parents "why should you pay so that I have to work? I will get a job where I will get paid and it won't cost you anything!"

The suggested tip for Rebbeim in camp is very high. These rebbeim get paid to work in camp, have a 'free' summer, their wives are free from household duties (mostly) and they dont pay for their children to go to camp. So why are tips so high for them?

Marion

Sat, Jul 30 2011, 10:40 pm

I haven't read the whole thread. But I think it's chutzpadik that tips are expected. Being a camp counselor is NOT working in a service industry any more than being a teacher is. You send a small gift at the end of the year for the teacher? Send a small thank you at the end of camp for a counselor. But tips? You've got to be kidding me. (For the record, yes, I worked as a counselor and yes, I was over 18, and NO I did not expect tips. Which was good, because the camp where I worked had a NO TIPPING rule. In fact, we were gathered the night before visiting day and reminded we were not to accept anything from any of the girls - or parents - and that accepting gifts/tips was grounds for dismissal mid-session.)

Barbara

Thu, Aug 04 2011, 2:18 pm

Marion wrote:

You worked at a camp where tips weren't allowed. But most camps send home notes indicating that tips are expected. Completely different.

You can think its chutzpadik from now until the cows come home. You can argue that they're not part of the service industry. It doesn't change a thing. The counselors at these camps are paid by tips. Period. If you don't tip, then (I) you have failed to pay an expected part of camp costs; and (ii) the counselor was not paid for taking care of your child.

amother

Fri, Aug 05 2011, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

my daughter didn't bring the newsletter before the end of the 1st half, so I didn't remember to tip then. I know that I can bring the money to the office and they'll mail it. I personally don't believe in tips, but the reason I want to tip is cause a day before the first half ended, my daughter misbehaved and I spoke to her counselor, so I don't want her to think that I didn't tip her cause I'm upset at her.

the question: do I bring in $8/$5 in cash or write a check? will the girls think it's disrespectful to get this little? if yes, I'd rather not tip.

no one?

OP here. DD was grateful to get anything. You have no idea how many 5 dollar checks she cashed. In my DD's case anything and everything was appreciated.