Why do parents NOT tip their kids Counselors??

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:43 pm

I agree it is ridiculous for camps to expect parents to tip instead of actually paying the counselor. It is a way for them to get out of taxes and cut costs. It also leads to parents trying to out-tip each other or trying to bribe counselors into treating their kid better.

However, this does not excuse parents for not tipping. You have a problem with camp policy? Take it up with the camp. Not tipping the counselor is not going to fix the problem. The counselor will just assume you don't have the money or are stingy. The camp will suffer no consequences and the system will continue except one young girl is now cheated out of her summer wages. Very fair of you to pass the buck onto the shoulders of a sixteen year old just because she won't say anything to you or is too polite to demand her wages.

These girls are told they will be receiving x amount of tips per child when they agree to the job. You are told you are expected to tip when you sign up for the camp (if you are not informed that is another story). You can't decide not tip at the end of the summer after your child has been cared for. Just like you can't decide the contractors quote was too much after he told it to you before beginning and he has all ready finished the job.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

At this point is there any parent in the great USA who does NOT KNOW that Counselrs are expected to be tipped?

Like I said, it's not just about the money. It's about the time and aggravation of figuring out everything for multiple counselors, multiple camps, multiple kids. That's more of a chutzpah than asking for the tips.

To those who have given the analogy of a restaurant meal, let me extend the analogy for you:

Many restaurants have a statement on their menus that a standard gratuity is charged for groups over a certain number. This enables them to adequately accommodate large groups without having the tips handled individually by members of the group.

In addition, when you tip your waiter, he is expected to tip the busboys and other service people who support his role. The customer is not expected to receive a list including Brian, the waiter; Jose, the incredible busboy; and Mikhail, the fabulous bartender.

If camps want to tack on a "gratuity fee" of $X, then that is their right. But they should do whatever distribution work is involved -- not the parents!

auntie_em

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:54 pm

Honestly, I never heard of tipping counselors before I read it here on imamother. I was a counselor long ago, and we didn't get tips, we got paid by the camp. I did pick up some great baby-sitting jobs from my campers parents.

However, it seems to be pretty known that it's expected. Unless it's your first time in the system, and are actually truly caught unaware, it is not right to take your frustration with the system out on the counselor.

I do wonder though, what would happen if parents refused to allow their older children to be counselors unless they are paid a decent wage by the camp. If I had kids that age, I would not allow it.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:10 pm

auntie_em wrote:

I do wonder though, what would happen if parents refused to allow their older children to be counselors unless they are paid a decent wage by the camp. If I had kids that age, I would not allow it.

I agree 100 percent! There is absolutely no way I allow my kids to accept these jobs if the compensation is not adequate without tips.

Now, let's be honest about what really happens: Shaina Maidel is, say, 15-17 years old. She doesn't really have anything to do in the summer, and for whatever reason, she doesn't have tons of options either for recreation or summer jobs.

So she gets a low-paying job as a counselor not because she is specifically trying to earn money, but because she wants to get some experience and fill up her time. If there are enough of these teenagers willing to work for highly minimum wages, then it isn't fair to criticize camps for not paying decent wages. The counselors aren't really employees as much as they are "interns."

One of my DDs applied for a job this summer working at a local day camp. When she calculated what her hourly earnings would be, she discovered that she would be paid a whopping $2.37 per hour.

I gave her the following advice:

Quote:

If you want to work for Camp X because your friends are working there; you think that it will be fun; and/or you don't have anything else to do other than sitting around the house, then by all means, take it. $2.37 per hour is definitely more than nothing!

If, however, your goal is to earn money to put toward a trip to Israel, then perhaps you need to look for something that is a little more remunerative. She ended up taking a series of mother's helper positions instead.

So I think it's important that camps not get sucked into a bait-and-switch game when it comes to paying counselors. If the counselors are essentially unpaid interns, then parents should not be shouldering extra expense to compensate people who previously agreed to work for next-to-nothing. If the counselors are trained employees, then they should be paid appropriately by the camp.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:15 pm

I resent it but I tip because its the right thing to do BUT if a staff member made my child NOT have a good time, I decided this year even if its the Rebbe, I did not tip. Camp is not school and its a vacation for the children from all the stress of school, I pay through the roof for it and I expect at least a decent time. If one child had a lifeguard who loafed and shmoozed instead of being actively involved in teaching the group swimming, or if a Rebbe called kids names and made learning Torah into something negative and undesirable experience for the children I will keep their tip money for mysef. At first I felt guilty a bit about it but now I feel its really the right thing to do. A tip - even though I expect it- shouldnt need to be given if staff was less than mediocre.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:21 pm

auntie_em wrote:

I do wonder though, what would happen if parents refused to allow their older children to be counselors unless they are paid a decent wage by the camp. If I had kids that age, I would not allow it.

Quote:

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:22 pm

amother wrote:

If you don't tip, then they think you forgot. Tip low, so they know what's going on.

That said, unless the specialty counselors do something special for your child, they're usually not tipped.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:26 pm

amother wrote:

Because I paid for camp. If the camp doesn't want to pay the counselors, and expects parents' tips to cover the difference, that should be disclosed with the tuition forms for camp and not at the end of the session.

The camp requests $5/counselor/week. With three counselors in each bunk, that's close to 15% of what I was told it would cost. That's a lot, IMO.

I remember being a 12 year old counselor getting paid $5/day for 5 hour days. Maybe 1/4 of the parents tipped me and I was totally shocked to be getting tips. Just wasn't on my radar at all.

So when you go to a restaurant, you also pay alot for your meal. You dont tip either??? shock

The restaurant charges for food and service is extra. And the expectation is clear at the beginning.

With camp, the service is what I paid for. I did not pay for water and construction paper -- I paid for adequate, safe, fun supervision for my children. If the camp expected me to pay the counselors separately, they certainly didn't make that clear in the registration materials.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:33 pm

amother wrote:

So when you go to a restaurant, you also pay alot for your meal. You dont tip either??? shock

Forgot to mention, and I don't GO to the kind of restaurant where a tip is expected because it's not in my budget. Those days when I simply can't cook, I make frozen pizza from Costco. As a very special treat, maybe twice in the past three years, I've taken my kids for pizza at the pizza store. Other than that, I do not eat out.

And the payroll taxes, please. 125%? Employer payroll taxes are under 8%, and as these are teenagers, with no other income, there should be minimal if any income tax withholding. And I will note that the teenagers are still liable to pay medicare and social security taxes if the employers don't withhold, except they have to report it as self-employment income which is just a mess.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:53 pm

Let me add another objection I have to the tipping-the-camp-counselors model: it serves as practically an engraved invitation for all kinds of aveiros, including several different types of loshen hora, judging others unfavorably, and comparing people's middos and characters.

My DD runs a pretty successful backyard camp, and each year she takes in a few campers who cannot afford to pay. Those who are offended by this can go duke it out on the other thread, but suffice it to say that my DD makes the determination, and truthfully, the cases she accepts without payment are pretty extreme situations.

Now, what happens when the end of the summer comes? If her counselors were expecting tips, it would be noticeable that certain families hadn't tipped the counselors or that the tips were minimal. So now what happens? Unless the counselors are truly tzaddikim, they shmooze a little among themselves:

"Did you get anything from the Ploni family?"

"No, I heard the father lost his job and they're really struggling."

"Really, that's awful. No wonder the family seems so stressed."

"Yeah, but at least I got a huge tip from the Almoni family."

"Oh. They gave me $5. I wonder if they were unhappy with me."

Now we've got all kinds of conversations and comparisons going on, and everyone is bound to be unhappy about something. Plus, of course, assumptions about the parents' financial state are reviewed by the teenage counselors. Of course, the camp directors will threaten everyone within inches of their lives if they discuss their tips, but you can guess how effective that is. And that's without any other potential variables, such as a parent who is friendly with a counselor's family and therefore wants to give him/her a little extra.

So not only is tipping problematic for parents, it's almost impossible to effectively teach teenagers concepts like work ethics, confidentiality, etc., when money is brought into the picture. Not to mention the age-old problem of counselors paying extra attention to campers whose parents are known to be well-off in hopes of garnering a big tip.

My DD requests that parents not tip counselors and suggests that any gifts be dollar store items. She pays her counselors approximately $7.50 per hour. Many parents do purchase small, inexpensive gifts that appeal to teenage girls, and I honestly believe that the girls get more excited about the cute tchotchkes costing $1 than they would over a tip.

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:11 pm

Fox wrote:

Fox, is your daughter paying all state and federal payroll taxes, withholding, and providing W-2s to all of her employees at the end of the year? Is she paying for insurance for her business? Does she have a permit to run the camp? A camp safety plan? Etc etc etc.

If not, your comparison of her camp to a professional camp is irrelevant.

I also think its ridiculous to say that camps shouldn't allow tipping because it may lead to discussion of families' finances. If Ploni's dad is out of work, the kids will either know that or not. And they'll know who is rich and who is poor by addresses, clothing, and the things that the kids discuss. If they're going to talk, they will.

Frankly, I cannot imagine the teen who is old enough to be a counselor (15 at day camps for junior counselors, 18 for senior counselors) who would be excited over an item from the dollar store, but I guess we live in different worlds.

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:18 pm

gold21 wrote:

I will tell you why people dont tip. Its because summer is so expensive, and heres a shocker: some of us are very tight for cash. the amount that is charged per month for camp is like triple the amount charged per month for school. if you cant understand how someone can be too tight for money to tip 7 counselors 20 bucks each, then you are clueless. (I bought my sons teachers this past year beautiful thank-you gifts for 10 months of dedication. in total I had 4 teachers to thank... but its hard to find the money for 8 people (or more) to say thank-you for 1 or 2 months of dedication... thats the bottom line.

But in reality, the bottom line is that the tips are an expected part of the cost of camp. When you don't tip, you're stiffing a teenager out of a large percentage of her or his compensation, whatever percentage your child represents (eg, if there's 10 kids in the group, then 10%).

I'd rather not tip the teachers. In fact, I don't tip teachers except if they do something above and beyond for us. They receive a real wage for their work. These counselors mostly work for tips.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:40 pm

Barbara wrote:

Fox, is your daughter paying all state and federal payroll taxes, withholding, and providing W-2s to all of her employees at the end of the year?

She gives them a statement of earnings based on what our accountant told her to do. None of her counselors files taxes.

Barbara wrote:

Is she paying for insurance for her business?

Yes, she has an umbrella policy.

Barbara wrote:

Does she have a permit to run the camp?

Yes; I work at home, so I'm the adult on the premises at all times.

Barbara wrote:

A camp safety plan? Etc etc etc.

You better believe she does! All counselors have to be certified in first aid and CPR. She files incident reports for even minor injuries or accidents. She also has an LCSW train the counselors on developmental expectations, disciplinary techniques, etc.

Barbara wrote:

If not, your comparison of her camp to a professional camp is irrelevant.

I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison, but I don't think the roles of counselors is terribly different at a "professional" camp versus a backyard camp.

Barbara wrote:

Frankly, I cannot imagine the teen who is old enough to be a counselor (15 at day camps for junior counselors, 18 for senior counselors) who would be excited over an item from the dollar store, but I guess we live in different worlds.

Seriously? I can go into a dollar store and find dozens of things I'd love to have someone give me! And I'm a lot older than 18!

I do understand your point about the inherent differences between a professional camp and my DD's backyard camp, but I don't think the differences are based on "professional" versus "teenage-run."

The differences seem to be more about expectations, both on the part of the camp administrators and on the part of the counselors. My DD pays far more than most similar camps in our community, and she demands far more of her counselors. In fact, she requires the counselors and their parents to sign off on a "contract" that explains upfront just what she expects in the way of behavior, performance, etc. The training she gives her counselors is comparable to that offered by our local JCC to its counselors.

She is very upfront with her counselors that they should not expect tips and that parents who want to do something special are urged not to spend more than $1-$2. She tells the parents, on the other hand, to buy something based on the counselor's personality -- not just a "oh, here's a junky gift because I had to get you something." So the parents who do choose to give a little gift generally pick out something fun that you might not buy yourself or something related to a particular interest of the counselor. Sometimes they give little gifts based on a private joke, and these are especially popular.

I guess I would argue that the difference lies not with the type of camp, but with the type of counselor. A counselor who is basically an unpaid intern shouldn't expect to have parents contribute to turn the internship into a paying job after the fact. A counselor who is expecting to earn money over the summer should realize that counting on tips is inherently risky.