Why do parents NOT tip their kids Counselors??

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:37 pm

gold21 wrote:

barbara, tips are not mandatory- they are recommended. when I was a counselor, only a few moms tipped me (maybe because I wasnt a great counselor? LOL) so, im not going into debt to tip counselors. I am a very involved type of mom. I thank staff members profusely like every other day. I am not irritating or demanding. I am generous with gifts to the main morah or main counselor- just not so much to the assistants. should I start a fund for myself cuz I dont have lots of extra cash in the summer, or should I just accept that this is the way it is?

If tips are not a part of the compensation at your camp, if they're not "recommended" by the camp, then that's fine.

If they are part of the expected and intended compensation of counselors, then they have to be taken into account when making a decision as to whether one can afford camp.

Its like any other service industry in which tips are expected. Its not appropriate for me to go into a restaurant with $20 in my pocket, order a meal that comes to $20, then walk out. The waitress gets stiffed. Its not appropriate for me to take a cab and, when the fare is $10, hand the driver a ten. My pedicure isn't $20, its $25, because of the tip. So if camp is $600, with $75 in tips expected from each parent, the cost of camp is $675.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:44 pm

Barbara wrote:

Its like any other service industry in which tips are expected. Its not appropriate for me to go into a restaurant with $20 in my pocket, order a meal that comes to $20, then walk out. The waitress gets stiffed. Its not appropriate for me to take a cab and, when the fare is $10, hand the driver a ten. My pedicure isn't $20, its $25, because of the tip. So if camp is $600, with $75 in tips expected from each parent, the cost of camp is $675.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm in favor of stiffing counselors at camps where they are led to believe they'll be generously tipped, but I'd much rather have the camp tell me that they are adding a $75 "gratuity fee" and have the camp divide up rather than be responsible for doling out $10 to this counselor; $15 to that one; $25 to the head bottle washer, etc.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:45 pm

OP here

In my DD camp, the parents know they are expected to tip. Most of these parents have been there from year to year and unless they just landed from Mars, trust me, they know
Also the excuse that they cannot afford it goes down the drain because as I said this is a very expensive camp. If you cant afford it, and afford to do whats expected, then dont send your kids there.

And as I said before, if you cant afford 15, give 10. Or 5. Or at least a note of gratitude. Something for heaven sakes.

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:49 pm

amother wrote:

That's fine, and can I then bill the camp for whatever time it takes me to organize all this? If it's truly not the money, what excuse does the camp have for not simply charging a gratuity fee and dividing the money themselves? I tip the waiter, not the busyboy, dishwasher, bartender, etc. -- the waiter is responsible for keeping everyone happy!

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 3:59 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Its not rocket science. Our list (overnight camp):

Counselor: $X

Junior Counselor $X minus $10

Waiters: $X minus $30. If more than one waiter for your child's bunk, tips will be divided amongst waiters

Camp mother: discretionary

My kid wouldn't know the camp mother if he tripped over her. I know that for a fact, as she goes to our shul, and he doesn't recognize her, and she doesn't recognize him. She once asked me where he goes to camp. We skip that one.

Camp distributes tips after campers leave. It keeps the counselors from jumping ship early.

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:01 pm

gold21 wrote:

I think this is different at different camps, but at many tips ARE required and I think that is the type of camp being discussed here. When the tip sheet says "suggested amounts" it does not mean tipping is optional. It means this is the amount they are suggesting you give and you can give more if you want. That girl has been told she will be getting that amount per child.

I know people are tight and I am not judging anyone for not having enough. I just think it is unfair to send the kid to camp knowing this is what the salary of the counselor should be with the intention of stiffing her just because you can get away with it. It might even be genaivah. Someone should ask a Rav I would be very curious to hear a ruling.

If the camp did not tell you this is their tipping policy then people have a legitimate tainah against the camp and the policy. But if people were told somewhere in the registration info or by another parents etc., knew they were not in a position to pay this and sent the kid anyway intending to not pay- that doesn't seem right to me.

Far better for camps to just charge more and pay the counselors themselves even though it will mean extra headache and taxes for them. Because less people would stiff the camp and they certainly would not be allowed to keep sending their kids year after year. But the parents have to demand this. Stiffing a teen is not going to effect policy change. They do not even report non-tippers tot he staff so nobody in the hanhalah has any idea what is going on.

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:10 pm

gold21 wrote:

You can't say that for every camp. Because at the camp I worked at (and went to for many years as a camper) tips were very much necessary. Waitresses and jcs were paid nothing by the camp. Their only wages were from tips. Counselors got paid something nominal like 200$. The tips sheet said "recommended amounts" but if a parent tried to claim that this meant tipping was optional I would tell you that parents just did not want to pay and was trying to rationalize a way out of it by reading into the wording. They were told hte tipping policy at enrollment.

It was a terrible system, but tipping WAS mandatory and everyone knew it. That being said most parents did pay, some just paid less than recommended (across the board to all their kids staff members, so it was not about services rendered not being satisfactory) and I was OK with that because I assumed it meant they were tight budget wise. It was a very expensive camp and they probably would have done better to send to a cheaper camp and paid the full tips instead of feeling like paupers at the expensive camp. I never had a parent not tip at all because it really was mandatory.

JAWSCIENCE

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:15 pm

amother wrote:

I don't tip because I have to feed my family. My motto is that if I don't get a tip how am I supposed to give one? I don't have extra $ for anything and if I tip that's less money for me and my kids to live on. I have the same bills to pay. I also don't understand how camps can charge so much and pay so little to the counselors and staff. They should be paid more and get rid of tipping altogether. Or all tips should go into a pot and divided equally. It should be all fair and square.

It does not give you the right to take wages away from a teenager. If tipping is mandatory at your camp and you can't afford it then don't send to that camp. Vote with your feet and go elsewhere! or speak to the management. You have very legitimate claims about the unfairness of the policy but stiffing the counselor is not going to help anything. It just means a young lady - and maybe her wages are needed at home too - is going without pay for caring for your child. Does that seem fair?

Fox

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:36 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

It just means a young lady - and maybe her wages are needed at home too - is going without pay for caring for your child. Does that seem fair?

Well, this is, IMHO, is the underlying question.

Is the young lady essentially an intern who is working as a counselor to fill her time and perhaps gain some experience? If so, then it seems quite fair.

Or is the young lady accepting a job with a highly-minimum wage in hopes that tips will compensate her. If so, then I agree with you that parents should in general follow the practice of the camp, but the young lady herself bears some responsibility for being realistic about the earning potential of the job.

An experienced waitress, for example, knows that a certain percentage of diners will completely stiff her; a certain percentage will under-tip; a certain percentage will tip 15 percent; and a certain percentage will over-tip. While that doesn't give parents the right to feign ignorance of the camp's policies, a counselor accepting such a position needs to realize that not everyone is going to give the "recommended" tip.

Truthfully, I don't really understand why someone in his/her late teens would be working as a camp counselor unless he/she viewed it as a kind of internship for a career working with kids. In my own experience, my kids worked under the "intern" model during their early teen years (when money wasn't the main point). By the time they reached their late teens, they had enough experience and skills to get summer jobs that paid more.

gold21

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:55 pm

ok, I dunno what u people are talking about. in my world, tipping is RECOMMENDED. no it is NOT required. like I said, when I was a counselor (lets say I was 16? so that was ten years ago, not in the 1700s) I only got a FEW tips. I didnt think that was odd. it was like- whatever, I wish I wouldve gotten lots of tips, but thats the way the ball rolls. I wasnt shocked at the moms who didnt tip. it is RECOMMENDED- yes it is absolutely optional. if it was mandatory, they would call you and bill you if you didnt tip.

Last edited by gold21 on Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 4:55 pm

Please keep in mind that some of us have 5 kids with 4 councilors and a rebbe to tip.

3 rebbes=150 (based on the camps tip list)
2 "older" Councilors * 5 kids @ 36 Each=360
2 JC's * 20 * 5 kids =200

that's 750 in "just a little bit for a teen" for the summer. that is what I paid in tips last year. I don't know if I will be able to do that this year. and if I can't tip some and not the others...Please keep in mind that While its "not much" It adds up when you have a few kids.

Added to the nearly 7000 dollar cost of day camp for 5 kids. And some will say its a luxury, but we work at home, if the kids are here we cannot work, cannot work, we cannot eat....Add that to a school who insists on camp or no admission to school next year, on the basis of if the kids not learning through the summer, their parents obviously don't care enough about their learning. Rolling Eyes

tips can and do put a lot of pressure on parents who can barely scrape together the money for camp.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:02 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Seriously. How long does it take to take a bunch of envelopes, write the cousnselors name, your name, write thank you on the outside and put in some money or a check? 10 minutes tops?? Come on. when there is a will there is a way!!

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:08 pm

Fox wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

It just means a young lady - and maybe her wages are needed at home too - is going without pay for caring for your child. Does that seem fair?

The current unemployment rate among teens is about 25%. Where are all these jobs that you think these teens can get? And shockingly enough, even kids who don't intend to work with children sometimes enjoy working in a camp. Not enough to do it for free, but enough to do it for a summer or two.

In any case, everyone knows that sometimes, a customer will stiff you. The owner of the grocery store knows that people will shoplift. The cab driver knows that people will run out without paying. That doesn't make it right.

Here's my suggestion to everyone who is intending to stiff their kids' counselors. How about asking a shayla. Tell the rav that the tips are an expected part of the cost of camp, and the vast majority of the salary that the counselors will receive. Ask if you're allowed to stiff them.

Frankly, I'm disgusted that people would try to justify this.

And if you *really* need camp, its *really* required for school, and you *really* can't afford it, then ask the CAMP to take the hit, not some kid who is depending on being paid.

Barbara

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:22 pm

gold21 wrote:

can I summarize this thread?: if you can afford to tip, even if its a little tight, it is very appropriate to tip. the counselors work hard and they deserve it (unless they did a bad job). they dont get paid a lot and your tips mean a lot to them. on the other hand, if you cant afford to tip, dont worry, just thank them verbally and move on. its completely okay and totally understandable.

No, that doesn't summarize this thread at all.

IF your child's camp doesn't have recommended or required tips, then tips are optional.

IF your child's camp has recommended or required tips, and you don't tip the counselor, you are doing so with the understanding that your child's counselor is not being paid for her work.

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:26 pm

Barbara wrote:

gold21 wrote:

Thank you for expressing yourself so eloquently, as usual.

As the OP, and mother of a teen that was "stiffed", I hope that perhaps some eyes were opened to the situation at hand, and hey, if it causes at least one mother to rethink her position, than it was all worth it!

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:38 pm

No, not all parents know about tipping, unless there is a "suggested tip" memo sent out by the camp. I don't use many services that require tips (I don't have a doorman, housekeeper, babysitter, manicurist, etc etc) and it isn't my first thought. IIRC, I have never received a tip in my life.

I was a counselor at a fairly expensive, well-known day camp in the 1980's. I didn't get any tips - the camp to this day has a no-tipping policy - and that was the total experience that I had with the system until my own child went to a different day camp almost 20 years later. Yes, I was surprised that I was expected to tip the counselors, and grateful that the camp told me (and pleasantly surprised on the rare occasions that the teenage staff remembered to thank me). This camp later went on to have a no-tipping policy as well.

Higher tuition in return for no-tipping is desirable for so many reasons, not the least of which is the tax benefit to working parents who use camp as childcare over the summer. Tuition is a tax-advantaged expense (ask your accountant for details, not me), while tips are not. Of course, it's hard to know which staff should be paid, it's hard to find them, it's generally a nuisance. Attention all camp directors - pay the counselors what they deserve and make life easier for everyone!

amother

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 5:54 pm

as someone who has worked in camps for a while... its really a messed up system. The staff gets paid literally below minimum wage and tiups are expected to make up the difference BUT for atleast the school I worked for the camp made BIG money for the school and it was one of their biggest revenues. Honestly its not right. I understand tips are nice. And the staff is hired being told to EXPECT them... but in this economy? You just can't expect a TIP a TIP is not mandatory. when did it become so it bothering me. Its a GRATUITY something showing your gratitude... you can also do that in a thank you latter etc.

I don't tip my cabs, I don't tip my nail ladies unless they do an AMAZING job, I tip my waitress baised on the service I get (ie if I hvae to yell across the room 3 times or come get you after 20 minutes of you not checking on me... no tip) you want a tio do an AMAZING job and earn it. its the ny eastern mentality to tip everyone. I am from the south where it is not so. You don't get something for nothing. You should not get a tip just for doing your job which you are already paid to do. you should get a tip out of the kindness of my heart for doing an EXCEPTIONAL job.