Why do parents NOT tip their kids Counselors??

auntie_em

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 11:03 pm

At the risk of sounding redundant, I am really wondering what would happen if the parents would simply not allow their children to work as counselors, for free or such minimal amounts. Wouldn't the camp owners have to rethink this system they have been using?

Twizzlers

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 11:21 pm

I think it is proper to tip, and it should be budgeted for to begin with, HOWEVER, the staff member has to work for it. If after 4 weeks of camp, my kid says that one counselor never spoke to him nor helped him with anything, I would not tip that one. I dont care if they are relying on my tip to pay their rent, if they did nothing to show they cared about my kid, I feel no obligation towards them. (and btw this did happen once and I tipped all the others that my kid did feel their care and concern.)

life'sgreat

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 11:34 pm

amother wrote:

OP here

In my DD camp, the parents know they are expected to tip. Most of these parents have been there from year to year and unless they just landed from Mars, trust me, they know
Also the excuse that they cannot afford it goes down the drain because as I said this is a very expensive camp. If you cant afford it, and afford to do whats expected, then dont send your kids there.

And as I said before, if you cant afford 15, give 10. Or 5. Or at least a note of gratitude. Something for heaven sakes.

Blech. This makes me want to vomit. Literally. An expensive camps that has the kids slave away for next to nothing and then they need to rely (and beg) for their 'tips'. Gross. So so gross.

Am I the only one that sees just how disgusting and money grubbing this seems? Why is the camp so expensive if they can't pay the counselors decently?

riki28

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 11:48 pm

My daughter came home with a tipping note today. I called the daycamp to ask which counselors are leaving & I was told they don't know & besides the head decided it doesn't matter bec why should the girls who are staying make less $ then the gitls who only work one half. The thinking is you can give less for a whole summer then half. I resent it however bec it will end up costing me a lot more. WWYD?

riki28

Wed, Jul 27 2011, 11:50 pm

Don't get me wrong. I tip but I think it's a chutzpa not to let me know who's staying/leaving

Isramom8

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 4:37 am

I worked in a NY sleepaway camp that suggested tipping. One parent didn't tip me. A month later, the camp director called me at home to ask if everyone had tipped me. I wasn't makpid, be he was! He made me say who stiffed me. A few days later, my tip arrived in the mail.

I like when camps inform me of the suggested tipping prices in advance. Or I could forget, since tipping is less of an Israeli thing. Now I will go and try to find out if the camp my teen is in expects tips. Thanks for the reminder.

intrigued

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 7:53 am

life'sgreat wrote:

amother wrote:

Was wondering the same thing.

slushiemom

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 8:16 am

My BIL is the director of a large, MO day camp with expensive tuition, and a fairly affluent parent body. He told me they have a NO TIPPING policy. First of all, they pay counselors decent salaries. Second of all, he doesn't like the attitude that some parents have of throwing money around to get what they want. This way, counselors treat all campers equally, and parents (especially scholarship parents) don't feel the need to tip.

Grandmama

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 8:20 am

auntie_em wrote:

I don't know about other parents. I would not allow my daughter to work for peanuts while the administrators of these camps laugh all the way to the bank. Same can be said for teaching jobs that don't pay fairly.
Schools take advantage of those that let themselves. If all parents would unite and demand fair wages for their children and young adults, there would be no problem like this.

What about if your child says her counselor is terrible? Do you still have to tip no matter what?

I have been generous when it was genuinely appreciated, and I have withheld tips when necessary as well.

CatLady

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:03 am

Quote:

Not redundant at all, and obviously not effective as long as there are teens willing to let themselves be exploited. FTR, I strongly discouraged my DS from working in a camp, and he ended up making minimum wage plus tips, which was financially much more rewarding.

Fox

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 11:28 am

Barbara wrote:

The current unemployment rate among teens is about 25%. Where are all these jobs that you think these teens can get? And shockingly enough, even kids who don't intend to work with children sometimes enjoy working in a camp. Not enough to do it for free, but enough to do it for a summer or two.

In any case, everyone knows that sometimes, a customer will stiff you. The owner of the grocery store knows that people will shoplift. The cab driver knows that people will run out without paying. That doesn't make it right.

Here's my suggestion to everyone who is intending to stiff their kids' counselors. How about asking a shayla. Tell the rav that the tips are an expected part of the cost of camp, and the vast majority of the salary that the counselors will receive. Ask if you're allowed to stiff them.

Frankly, I'm disgusted that people would try to justify this.

And if you *really* need camp, its *really* required for school, and you *really* can't afford it, then ask the CAMP to take the hit, not some kid who is depending on being paid.

Don't even get me started about the alleged 25 percent unemployment rate among teenagers. First, that rate includes a wide range of regions, including significantly depressed inner-city neighborhoods. Second, my observation is that within the Jewish community, at least 80 percent of "teenage unemployment" is a direct result of what I consider to be extreme parental negligence. For a fuller explanation, see my post on Shalhevet's thread about dealing honestly with teenage workers.

There are plenty of opportunities for teenagers. However, the teenagers have to (a) have some identifiable skills; and (b) be able to effectively find and apply for work. In some cases, they have to be prepared to make their own jobs. That means that mom and dad have to do more than write a check and then complain about it.

Now, some people will argue that not every teen is capable of that, and while there are situations where various learning disabilities or developmental delays make it impossible, the vast majority of teenagers in our communities are incredibly cosseted when it comes to work. Why else are kids in their mid-teens going to camp?!

I am NOT suggesting that anyone stiff the counselors at camps where tipping is part of the culture. However, the numbers you suggested are so out of my world that you might as well be telling me to tip $1 million. The waiter gets $30 less than the head counselor? How much does the counselor get that allows you to subtract $30? Wow!

I AM suggesting that these teenagers are not truly employees; they are interns.

Personally, I'm not such a great fan of the intern system, either -- at least for anyone over the age of 12 or 13. Why not just develop some skills so that you can be paid fairly for your work?

auntie_em wrote:

I can tell you what happens here in the Midwest: there is a natural culling system. The kids who end up working in the low-paying camps are either literally lacking in abilities or, more common, were unable to find anything else to do. The camp counselor jobs become the summer option of last resort. Then, faced with lackadaisical or downright incompetent counselors, parents resent the tipping culture even more!

CatLady wrote:

FTR, I strongly discouraged my DS from working in a camp, and he ended up making minimum wage plus tips, which was financially much more rewarding.

Good for you! I am disturbed by how much camps blur the line between campers and employees (see JAWSCIENCE's experience as a waitress and junior counselor). One of my DDs is attending a well-known camp for a few weeks this summer, where I am paying $500 for the privilege of her working as a waitress. Apparently the deal is that she has lots of free time and can participate in some of the activities as a camper. I was not in favor of this, but her school basically strong-armed us into it. Since she's not going the full summer, she was able to get other jobs while she was at home, so the summer isn't a total loss.

The camp where my DD is working/camping has a no tipping policy, but for camps where tips are expected, the whole thing becomes even muddier: the parents are paying to send the kid . . . the kid is working at the camp . . . the kid is not being paid much . . . other parents are expected to make it financially worthwhile. Oh, and the kid's parents are still somehow out the money they paid to allow their kid to work . . .

How about just making sure the kid can get a real job?

CatLady

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 11:54 am

Here's a list of some of the jobs my DS held while a teen/putting himself through school, just for a few examples of what's out there: Dishwasher, food service in a bagel store and a lunch counter/caterer, barista, working in a movie theatre (he got into the theatre free as a benefit!), scooping cones at Ben and Jerry's, telemarketing, working as a clerk in a hospital. All of these skills were acquired on the job, and some of them (I.e., barista) are actually good fallbacks to have in times of economic downturn.

I always tip the barista or ice cream scooper to this day, but I never tipped my son's counselors. I also don't tip the transport attendant who wheels me to X-Ray when I'm in the hospital, or the cashier at the bookstore. To me, tips are associated with food service-related occupations, and the minimum wage is adjusted slightly downward for these occupational categories to reflect this. (About $1.00 less an hour, where I live)

I'd much rather write my son a start-up cheque to raise $2500 for the Livestrong Foundation and have him cycle hundreds of miles than pay to have him work as a CIT, waiter, etc. in a for-profit setting! YMMV, of course.

amother

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 12:10 pm

My kids are at a Chabad Gan Izzy. There is no information whatsoever about tipping for counsellors. Are Chabad counsellors (kids flown in from elsewhere) also underpaid or not paid?

intrigued

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 12:20 pm

amother wrote:

My kids are at a Chabad Gan Izzy. There is no information whatsoever about tipping for counsellors. Are Chabad counsellors (kids flown in from elsewhere) also underpaid or not paid?

The girls are paid $50 a week. But they don't do it for money, they are also given trips, an apartment, a car and all expenses including flight. The $50 is just as a pocket money. In my 3 years of being a counsellor I had 3 campers who gave $10-$20 at the end. It was totally unexpected and it was just a gesture from the parents. I was actually very surprised and I really didn't find it necessary.

lamplighter

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 12:34 pm

intrigued wrote:

amother wrote:

My kids are at a Chabad Gan Izzy. There is no information whatsoever about tipping for counsellors. Are Chabad counsellors (kids flown in from elsewhere) also underpaid or not paid?

I would not say that those counselors are paid well. Nowadays it's on average $50 a week but the living expenses are different in different camps. Some camps pay for all their food, some pay for trips, some pay for gas. Some pay a lump sum and expect it to cover while it might not. Most of the girls I know do not make money doing Gan Izzy camps (a good portion of it gets used as spending money or whatever over the weeks that they are there)but they do it for the experience and to give to others in a fun way. Tipping is not required or expected but it is a nice thing to do. In short, the counselors are not well paid at all (this is not being used as savings because it doesn't amount to much) but the camp does not expect parents to give tips to compensate, tipping is appreciated obviously. So if money is tight, you can skip it and just write a note if you'd like. If you can tip- that's always nice.

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 8:39 pm

cm wrote:

I was a counselor at a fairly expensive, well-known day camp in the 1980's. I didn't get any tips - the camp to this day has a no-tipping policy

Just felt like adding that we were paid about $1/hour (less than 1/3 of minimum wage in those days). There were a few perks - classes and activities for the staff outside of camp hours - so perhaps my parents should be grateful that they weren't charged for my labor!

Thu, Jul 28 2011, 8:41 pm

amother wrote:

My kids are at a Chabad Gan Izzy. There is no information whatsoever about tipping for counsellors. Are Chabad counsellors (kids flown in from elsewhere) also underpaid or not paid?

Our Gan Izzy sends tipping guidelines towards the end of the session.

Ruchel

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 4:39 am

Underpaid or not, teens RUN to work in camps... at least here.
Parents are free to not let them.

allrgymama

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:27 am

I haven't read all five pages.

DD is in daycamp and she is just over two years old.

I will not be tipping the teenager who his helping the Morah with the daycamp (Morah herself has a daughter that must be close to 12 years old, if not older and Morah has been doing this she herself was in 10th grade. So, a while).

While I appreciate the frustration of working for pennies (I did work as a daycamp assistant one summer and the amount they did -- or rather, didn't -- pay me, was appalling. My mother marched down to the director and demanded more), and as a working adult and mother the entire concept of tipping, in and of itself, is very bothersome to me.

I would be happier paying more for the summer than to have to tip. Just as it's not my job, as someone eating at a restaurant, to actually pay a person's salary through tip. I paid for my meal it is the owner's achrayhis to pay a salary.

I'm even curious of what the halachic implications of this are. A parent shouldn't let their child go work in a camp if they aren't happy with the salary. And as far as sleepaway camps go, you have to remember that beyond the tips or salary that camp provides, they're also being fed and given a roof over their heads, and entertainment and access to a pool and so on.

(Also, my counselors did jack squat when I was in sleepaway camp. They should get hundreds of dollars for sitting at a table and watching their bunk eat lunch? Or making sure I made my bed? Really? The only camp I know of where counselors actually played ALL sports with their bunk was in Fay-Gah. In Bnos, you got handed off to some first-year staffer who supervised while your counselor hung out in the bunkhouse with her friends.)

Tipping used to be a mark of excellent service (for lack of a better word) and it has degenerated down to something expected. I once walked out of a restaurant, after terrible service, and had a waitress follow me and my sisters to the door demanding a tip.

If we went back to only tipping for excellent service, not only would it force owners (or in this camp, camp morahs and directors) to pay a better salary, there would be competition in the field to provide better service.

So yeah. I won't be tipping.

<braces>

Last edited by allrgymama on Fri, Jul 29 2011, 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

SplitPea

Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:35 am

allrgymama wrote:

I haven't read all five pages.

DD is in daycamp and she is just over two years old.

I will not be tipping the teenager who his helping the Morah with the daycamp (Morah herself has a daughter that must be close to 12 years old, if not older and Morah has been doing this she herself was in 10th grade. So, a while).

While I appreciate the frustration of working for pennies (I did work as a daycamp assistant one summer and the amount they did -- or rather, didn't -- pay me, was appalling. My mother marched down to the director and demanded more), and as a working adult and mother the entire concept of tipping, in and of itself, is very bothersome to me.

I would be happier paying more for the summer than to have to tip. Just as it's not my job, as someone eating at a restaurant, to actually pay a person's salary through tip. I paid for my meal it is the owner's achrayhis to pay a salary.

I'm even curious of what the halachic implications of this are. A parent shouldn't let their child go work in a camp if they aren't happy with the salary. And as far as sleepaway camps go, you have to remember that beyond the tips or salary that camp provides, they're also being fed and given a roof over their heads, and entertainment and access to a pool and so on.

(Also, my counselors did jack squat when I was in sleepaway camp. They should get hundreds of dollars for sitting at a table and watching their bunk eat lunch? Or making sure I made my bed? Really? The only camp I know of where counselors actually played ALL sports with their bunk was in Fay-Gay. In Bnos, you got handed off to some first-year staffer who supervised while your counselor hung out in the bunkhouse with her friends.)

Tipping used to be a mark of excellent service (for lack of a better word) and it has degenerated down to something expected. I once walked out of a restaurant, after terrible service, and had a waitress follow me and my sisters to the door demanding a tip.

If we went back to only tipping for excellent service, not only would it force owners (or in this camp, camp morahs and directors) to pay a better salary, there would be competition in the field to provide better service.

So yeah. I won't be tipping.

<braces>

totally agree!